233. Interview with Reporter Lee Elder - The Jack Hyles Report

1. 0:16

   In 1989, I was a correspondent, basically a part-time staff writer for the Nashville Banner, which was a daily newspaper in Nashville until it folded in 1999. I had gone home.

   I wanted to visit with my parents. It was a long weekend. Mom was taking extra care to cook supper that night.

   I saw the biblical evangelist on the table and I picked it up. Of course, with a headline like the saddest story I've ever told will kind of grab you, especially being a journalist type. I read the article and by the time I was done,

   despite some flaws in it journalistically, it was fairly well put together and really made me pretty well convinced that Hiles was probably guilty of this.

   So I talked to my Pop and he was an IFP pastor, but he always had an open mind. And Pop told me that, yeah, he thought it was true as well.

2. 1:36

   And furthermore, he had reached out to a couple of his mentors and they shared the same opinion.

   Welcome back to the podcast. What a great day it is to be here with you. And, uh, what a wonderful time, uh, the 4-Freedom Podcast has had, uh, first episode back from the season last week.

   And, uh, today we've got a good one lined up for you. We have an interview that we're going to talk about here in just a minute. Uh, but before we get started, Brett, welcome back to the show.

   Welcome back to being in front of each other. And, uh, man, what a great, uh, week of been in the Lord we've had, um, this past weekend was last Saturday of August.

   Brett, I was telling you before we got on, how crazy is it that we're in the month of September? I know it's, it's nuts.

3. 2:33

   And especially down here in Mississippi, because here's the thing. So everybody's put out their fall decorations. We've got pumpkins,

   we've got fall, you know, our church has already converted over to the, to the fall leaves, put up the fall decorations. It may be 101 degrees outside, but at least we can, uh, do our fall decoration decorations.

   We can, we can drink our pumpkin spice lattes and sweat and, uh, be in the humidity.

   But that's just, that's just part, especially down here in Southern Mississippi, that's just part of it.

   If you want to enjoy fall decor and all the fall stuff that comes with it,

   uh, you're going to be doing it while you're sweating because we get about, we get about two weeks of actual fall before the, you know, the winter hits. And so, but everybody's got their fall decorations out, but it, you know, we're still sweating like a banshee.

4. 3:26

   Uh, but that's just part of it, you know? Yeah, we're just trying to, uh,

   uh, what do they call it? Uh, uh, when you're trying to speak something into existence, what is that?

   What are the, yeah, you're just trying to will it into existence and existence. I mean, you're just trying to make it happen. If I put the fall stuff out, it's going to cool down. Like all the, all the fall things are going to come along with it. If I just,

   uh, uh, manifest, that's the word I was thinking of trying to make their man of trying to manifest the fall weather. That's the fall weather.

   I love it. Hey, so you mentioned it and I want to, I want to bring it up because I was going to say something. Are you guys a PSL family? A what? A PSL, a pumpkin spice latte family, man.

5. 4:08

   Come on. Oh, PSL. PSL. For sure. Oh yeah, man. I love the pumpkin spice. I really do. I love the pumpkin flavor, pumpkin spice. Um, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Yeah. Are you one of the guys that, uh,

   that stocks up on it, puts it in the freezer? Uh, you know, get more than you can handle and then, you know, thaw it out throughout the year. So are you just a pumpkin spice in the, in the fall time? Um, I'm not really that overly except, uh, obsessed with it.

   We'll, what we'll do is we'll buy the pumpkin spice creamer for the coffee. Yeah.

   And every once in a while at the coffee shop, I'll get me a pumpkin spice and then I'm, I'm good. And we're not, we don't have to stock up for, you know, the, the nuclear holocaust, but, uh, we're definitely gonna, we're definitely gonna put Sprink a little bit in there.

6. 5:01

   The, for me, I'm a, I'm a still French vanilla coffee guy for my creamer. I don't change my creamer up really any, um, at any time. I don't normally do that. The, what I look forward to is the pumpkin spice rolls. The, uh, the,

   the, the big rolled up with cream cheese. You know, when you slice it, goodness, dude, I could, I could eat my way through one of those. Uh, my wife, my wife, every year, this time of year, she makes pumpkin chocolate chip muffins and they are incredibly good. They're moist.

   And, uh, she makes them a few times during the fall. They're always a big hit. She makes a batch for us. She makes a batch to take to work and a batch for the church, but man, they are, they are primo, primo good. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

   Um, yeah, we've got, uh, that that's coming up quickly, September.

7. 5:59

   Um, let's, let's talk about what we've got going on today. Uh, I had something else on my mind that I was going to bring up and I totally forgot it. Um, but let's, let's discuss, uh, what we've got going on today. We've got a, an interview with Mr. Lee Elder and, uh, Mr.

   Lee, he was a reporter for many years. Uh, his dad was a pastor and, uh, he was able to cover a lot of what was going on with Jack house back in the day. And so we were able to talk through him. Um, you know, for me, I wasn't,

   I was young during that time. If I think even when some of these things came out, I wasn't even born yet. Um, Brett was really young as well.

   And, and, and part of the house Anderson movement during some of this. Um, so we were able to ask him some, some firsthand experience knowledge of, of what was going on and what was going to happen or what was happening on the boots on the ground during that time.

8. 6:54

   Uh, shared a lot of insight. I'd heard some of it, some of it I hadn't heard. And, uh, so we wanted to bring him on Brett. What was your thought as we, uh, interviewed him and we talked through some of these things, man, I'll be honest with you.

   He opened my eyes to a lot of stuff. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't know that was going on on the background. In fact, while I was at house Anderson,

   all of the stuff for the controversy with house and David and all this stuff, it, it really was swept under the rug.

   I didn't know much about it until I had actually left. And then Lee just blew me away with his firsthand information, all the investigating that he'd done players involved that I didn't know that was that were even involved. And so it was highly eyeopening for me and I enjoyed the interview a lot.

9. 7:45

   Yeah, it was a great time. And, uh, we're going to jump into that in just a second, right before we do a couple of housekeeping things. Remember, uh, my newest book came out freedom from brokenness and, uh, you can pick that book on Amazon. We've also our,

   um, from brokenness to freedom from depression. I'm sorry. And then, uh, from brokenness to freedom, um, that's available as well out on Amazon land.

   You can get that and links are in the show notes. If you haven't got a, uh, some of our cigars, uh, go check those out. We're looking at adding a couple of new lines here soon.

   And, uh, so we want to give you guys some, uh, some good quality stuff. So go by, check those things out.

   And, uh, Brett, we don't have any big meetups coming up or anything going on. Uh, well, we're going to be together anytime soon.

10. 8:31

    Uh, but if something does come up, we'll definitely let you guys know, uh, Brett, me and me and you were talking about this the other day. And, uh, before we get started, we'll do that, um, about how much we missed the RFP meetups and, uh, how much, um,

    just getting together, uh, maybe together that the RFP fam is, is some of the best crew and just to get the chance to meet up with those guys. Um, um, we look forward to it every year. Yeah.

    Maybe, maybe just maybe if another people reach out to us and say, Hey, will you guys put on a meetup somewhere?

    Maybe we'll find a place in Tennessee in between me and you, where we can get together a weekend or something and, and get a bunch of guys and girls together and just hang out, uh, find a place to maybe we can rent John's church out.

11. 9:18

    He's in Manchester. He's not far from either one of us.

    And, uh, just have a, have people come by and hang out and have a good time. Uh, if you're wanting to do something like that and you're listening to us, man, reach out to me or Brett comment on this. Uh, if you're listening on Spotify, comment on Spotify, we get all those comments.

    Uh, let us know your thoughts, let us know what you want to do. And, uh, maybe we'll get enough interest, Brett.

    We'll just throw something out there and see what happens. I would love nothing more than to reconnect with the RFP fam. That would be, oh, that would be wonderful. Make my, make my year. Yeah. Maybe we'll put a poll out somewhere and see what people think as well. So.

    All right. A little interest. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, without further ado, let's jump into this episode today with Mr.

12. 10:02

    Lee elder. For freedom, you set me free. Not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace, cigars, and victory justified, released.

    Welcome to the 4-Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues.

    I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code.

    Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math.

    So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king.

13. 10:55

    Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom.

    He set me free. Not for change. Not for guilt. Not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing. Peace. Cigars, and victory. Justified. Released. For freedom. He set me free. Not for change. Not for guilt. Not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing. Peace. Cigars, and victory. Justified.

    Released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you've got me free, not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing. Now here are your hosts, James Safrit and Brett Martin. What happens when a pastor becomes so influential that questioning him feels like questioning the entire movement?

    Now for the next several episodes of the 4-Freedom Podcast, we're going to examine Jack Hiles, the Hiles Church Manual, and the philosophy of ministry that influence generations of independent Baptist churches. Brett, I'm excited about looking through the Hiles Church Manual.

14. 11:59

    Like I told you last week, I'd never use this as a textbook or a guide in college.

    I was referred to often from chapel where I was at, but I'm excited about walking through this over the next couple weeks. But before we get to the manual, we want to go back to the beginning. We want to see what actually happened and surrounded the Jack Hiles fiasco, as many people say.

    And why do so many pastors rally around him when serious allegations were being raised? This past week, we had the youth conference for Hiles Anderson.

    And at the youth conference, one of the pastors, Ada Lapina, got up and praised Jack Hiles' name and said there was nothing that ever had happened and how a great man of God he was. And so we want to dissect this a little bit and figure out the history of it.

15. 12:51

    And we brought on a man that has been in this story for many, many years, longer than I've been alive. And his name is Lee Elder.

    And Lee has a unique perspective that he brings to the table. And so, Lee, why don't you tell us a little about your background and how you grew up in the IFB movement? Yes, sir. My pop, he's still around at 91 years old.

    He was an IFB pastor for many years. So he had felt called to the ministry a little bit later in life.

    He didn't really take his first church until he was about 40 years old. But he had a long and fruitful ministry.

    Of course, being in the movement in the 70s and 80s, you heard the name of Jack Hiles quite often. One of my former pastors would use Hiles' stories to make his points. He'd credit Hiles.

16. 13:57

    But so he was somebody that I was familiar with. And my first year of college was in 1979. And I went to Tennessee Temple University. And for the first time, I heard Jack Hiles speak. Now, my reaction was a lot different than many of the other students.

    I remember walking back to the dorm with a couple of my roommates. And they asked me, well, what did you think? You got to hear him. And I'm like,

    yeah, that guy is really full of himself, isn't he? And they didn't really care for my comment too much. But, you know, Hiles talked a whole lot about Hiles.

    And, yeah, he'd throw Jesus in there every now and then. But it was mainly focused on how great I am and what you can do to be like me. Now, you know, like I said, your father, you know, pastored IFB churches for more than 20 years.

17. 15:04

    What did you see? Did you notice anything in that growing up in that environment or being around that? Well, of course, growing up IFB is very restrictive, especially back then.

    And it was even more difficult on my sister, you know, having to go to public school wearing kneeling dresses every day.

    And yet I feel blessed because we came from a loving home and Pop never did buy into all the minutia. And he really kept his focus on Jesus and on ministering to people.

    And I've always been grateful to him for that because I talked to some of my peers and counterparts and they didn't have it that lucky. Because, you know, Pop was and is a discerning man. And even if Dr.

    Robertson at Tennessee Temple said something that he didn't really think jived with scripture, he would politely and respectfully tell us, Well,

    I think Doc maybe just a little bit too hard on that or I'm not really sure that's found in the Bible.

18. 16:33

    So I'm glad that he kept his mind open and was constantly discerning.

    Now, I will say that my pastor growing up was a Tennessee Temple grad and we actually, you know, Lee Robertson, he wrote a book called Preaching to America, where he went and visited all of his graduate churches.

    And Lee Robertson came to our church when I was young and I enjoyed being able to meet him and, you know, hear him preach.

    I like Lee Robertson a lot. But you told us about how when you first heard Jack Hiles, what your impression of him was. But at that point, did you have any idea of how influential he would become?

    Yes, because just looking around the IFB movement at the time, really what Hiles said went. And of course, as you know, with with Hiles Anderson College, even with Tennessee Temple, to a lesser extent,

19. 17:43

    a lot of the sermons that Hiles and Dr. Robertson and other leaders gave were basically echoed throughout pulpits across the nation.

    Yeah, they used and we're talking about a little bit the sort of Lord to really propel a lot of that with publishing sermons and publishing their ideas. People would pick that up and preach it.

    But I mean, often my pastor would say, you know, if any his tongue in cheek joke on the service every Sunday was, you know, if it was a great service today, if anyone from the swords here, we have

    anywhere under a thousand people here because his goal was just that idea of the sword was everything. And so, you know, the influence of Jack Hiles, I believe, spreads so, so far and so wide.

    Pre-internet, pre-ability to have social media, it really looking back at it is fascinating on that.

20. 18:43

    And, you know, you've already encountered him personally, but about 10 years later, you weren't just hearing about this fundamentalist guy in the circles. You were actually working in the journalism side when the controversy exploded.

    And, you know, this is important because the investigation side is really an important aspect to it.

    And so why don't you tell us the journey from being inside the IFB to now being someone outside, really covering it from the outside, looking in as a journalist. Well, it was very difficult at first because unlike a lot of modern day journalists,

    I really try hard to be objective. I really try hard to tell both sides of things. And it was it was difficult, but.

    I saw this as a legitimate story, but the problem is, is I was a journalist working in Nashville, Tennessee. And this involves a Hammond, Indiana pastor. So I really had to search for a Middle Tennessee angle to it.

21. 19:59

    Thankfully, my editor would would indulge me. And I got to write a reaction story from some of the some of the top fundamentalist pastors in in Middle Tennessee at the time.

    And one of those pastors was Randy Ray, who was the founder and pastor at Metropolitan Baptist Church in Nashville for 25 years. And unlike a lot of his counterparts,

    Randy Ray canceled two Hiles appearances that he had scheduled at his church after this came out. And he didn't he didn't he didn't do so critically, but he showed real discernment. Plus, he didn't want his church tarnished by by Hiles appearance.

    And I believe personally, he was starting to understand the flaws in the Hilesian theology. And he had to he had to take a stand.

    So what was the what was the Nashville Christian landscape like at the time when this is going on? Well, it was a lot more conservative than it is right now.

22. 21:25

    Those of us who live in Tennessee sometimes refer to Nashville as the the People's Republic of Nashville. But you had only started with the the widespread migration of of people in into Nashville from other parts of the country and in other parts of the world.

    So it was still, you know, pretty much a Southern Baptist Church of Christ dominated kind of place. It's not like that now, but it was back then. When now Nashville Christian that wasn't Christianity today.

    Are they the same now or are they separate or do they become Christianity today? I know you work for them. Well, I, again, in addition to writing for newspapers, I was able to do freelance writing. I did try to pitch things to Christianity today.

    And they were gracious enough to to run an article about about Hiles. I think they kind of were skeptical when I said in the article, look,

23. 22:42

    I reached out to First Baptist of Hammond and got nothing. And they tried and got the same result. Yeah.

    Well, and one of our friends, he's tried reaching out to them and still the story is the same today. They don't respond to any any requests or any comments when it comes to any publication about them or for them. So.

    So when did Jack House become a story that you were personally interested in that you began to cover? Was this something that was sort of forced on you or was this something that became a hobby horse of yours or how did that look? It became a hobby horse.

    You know, I was a lot younger man back then. And I thought, well, you know, maybe there's a book in this in the future. But. Initially, I thought, well, I've got my Tennessee, middle Tennessee angle. And then the sword, the Lord comes out and they.

24. 23:41

    They really trashed Robert Sumner. Of course, in the initial article, Sumner had taken a couple of shots at the sword of the Lord. And I know when I mentioned in this Christianity Today article that Hudson, Dr. Hudson had defended Hiles.

    He said, well, no, we weren't defending Hiles, but we were responding to criticism that was aimed at us. But, you know,

    I just said whatever at that point. And you'll find that after that, the sword didn't say a whole lot about Jack Hiles any longer. Yeah.

    So let's let's get to the Robert Sumner article, the bulk of where we're at today. Tell us sort of the story chronologically where you were at, what you went through.

    Maybe our listeners have never even heard of the Robert Sumner article that came out in 1989.

    Sort of give us what the gist of it was and the headline and and how it became this breaking news that divided Christianity or IFB at the moment where people began questioning who this man Jack Hiles was.

25. 24:54

    Sure. Sure. It was interesting that, again, I I just happened upon the article. I was not a subscriber to the biblical evangelist, although I had read it. But my pop had it in his house and I read it. We discussed it.

    And, you know, I just kind of put it in the in the back of my mind. And then when I kind of got a glimpse of what was happening around the nation, it was a lot more compelling story because me, I was naive. I thought, well, after this,

    you know, Hiles will be resigning from the pulpit, you know, maybe going off to Florida somewhere. But instead, the the pro Hiles people really rallied and they they denied that Hiles had done anything wrong, even in the light of of what was going on, even in the light of the article.

    And like I said, there were flaws in it.

26. 26:06

    But I think Sumner got the story right. But because of their allegiance to Hiles, they they didn't even want to question him. But I will say that as I talk to more people, that there was a a tide that was starting to run against Hiles.

    And of course, that that began with a couple of scandals in Texas with Tim and Terry Smith, who were were pastors down there were Hiles protégés. And then, of course, who could forget David Hiles, short Stennis pastor at in in Garland, Texas. And.

    And. People started to wonder what's going on down there, what's going on in Hammond, what? Why so much bad fruit coming out of this place? Plus. When people did try to talk to Hiles about David.

    Oh, he would basically tell a different story to every different pastor he had spoken to. And as those guys compared notes, they realized that something was wrong.

27. 27:30

    Yeah. Now, the original article came out. It was called the saddest story I've ever told by. Yes. Robert Sumner. And the article,

    in essence, accused Hiles of sexual scandals with, I believe, two women. Right. Financial misappropriations and then doctrinal errors.

    I mean, we we all get some things wrong doctrinally. Hiles said that these were all lies. Later, about 12, 15 years ago in 2012, Hiles' own daughter, Linda, came out and claimed that these charges were true.

    And she considered her own father to be the leader of a cult. And so when you hear all those things and you hear this for the very first time, you immediately, you know, you go to your dad. Right.

    That's what I would do if I heard you go to your dad and you tell him this. What was your father's response? And then you said your father contacted his mentor.

28. 28:27

    What did his mentor tell him to do? Well, my pop's mentor for for quite a while had had told him, you know, keep your distance from Hiles Anderson College. He didn't go into any details, but he had just said, hey, you know, there's other Christian colleges.

    My pop's reaction was one of great sadness. When I when I asked him about it, I could see his his whole demeanor just become very down because when one pastor falls, it really does reflect on all of them.

    You know, we had we were just clear of the Baker Baker and Swaggart scandals. And believe me, my pop in no way is is charismatic, but he felt the sadness when those things happened. So he he just felt very bad that that it would come to this.

    Plus, I believe many of us at the time were just so shocked at, you know, the Hiles 100 percent mentality that seemed to be pervasive throughout a lot of fundamentalism at that time.

29. 29:52

    So when did you decide when I need to investigate this myself and and who did you contact?

    How did you start that? Well, I first started by calling fundamentalist pastors in Middle Tennessee.

    And believe me, I I had to call a bunch just to get a handful of comments because most of those pastors didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

    We had mentioned the late Pastor Bob Kelly, who was a pastor in Murfreesboro at the time, and he wouldn't even discuss it with me.

    I mean, he was polite, but he's like, no, there's this is just too sad. There's enough been said about it. So. I tried to reach out to the players myself.

    A friend had put me in touch with Vic Nischik. And really, that began a friendship between us that lasted the rest of my life. I talked to Vic and I talked to both of his children,

30. 30:59

    Jack and Judy, and they were in total agreement with their father.

    In fact, one of the times I talked to Judy about it, she just began crying.

    So I say, well, there's four people in that house and three of them are saying one thing and one is saying nothing at all. And of course, Jenny Nischik was Hiles alleged lover.

    Victor Nischik claims that that Hiles had ruined their marriage and that she was now more devoted to Hiles than she was to Vic and their family. And was was that the secretary of the church or not? OK. Yeah. And I've heard stories.

    And I think me and John, who originally the founder of the podcast, he had mentioned that as well. How I think Linda had mentioned where they would go on vacations together and like they went on a cruise, they would have a room for the house family, the room for the Nischik family.

31. 32:09

    And then her and Jack Hiles would have their own room as well that he would rent for all of them, I believe is one of the stories that I was told. Well, Vic, Vic was pretty adamant about his allegations against Hiles and and his wife. Certainly later in his life, he did.

    He did recover. He married just a wonderful woman before he died and really got to enjoy a fine marriage. Uh, in fact, uh,

    is, uh, his wife, Lenore, uh, had even helped me, uh, when, uh, when all three of our kids were little, she had, uh, we had gone out and they were rowdy and she had, uh, helped calm the kids down. And I was just really impressed with her love and her genuineness. Yeah.

    One of the, uh, things that I've recently put out a book, uh, from brokenness to freedom. And the very first thing we talk about, me and Brett have talked about it as well as the disillusionment moment, the moment where you're going down the road and the blinder sort of come off and you begin to

32. 33:20

    see, uh, life in a different reality or a different light. Um, so what was the,

    that moment for you when you had heard these attacks, but you're like, okay, I'm a journalist. Average church members probably don't see this and I'm beginning to see it. What was that moment for you, uh, as you were researching this, this event? For me, um, it was talking with, uh,

    uh, Dr. Walt Hanford. Um, of course I had gone to high school with, uh, uh, several of John R. Rice's, uh, grandchildren and was always impressed with Dr. Rice. And, uh, Dr. Hanford was, uh,

    was equally impressive. And he, uh, he was very open from the start. He told me to feel free to ask him any question, um, that I would like. And, and I did. And of course, you know, that Dr. Hanford was, um, the first person to, uh,

33. 34:21

    confront Hiles with this matter. And, uh, Hiles wouldn't see him and, uh, blew him off. And then, of course,

    Dr. Hanford was trying to follow the tenants in Matthew 18. So he went, uh, back to Hiles with Dr. Ed Nelson, who was, uh, um, a well-known pastor, uh, in Colorado at that time and had been in the ministry, uh, more than 50 years at that point.

    And, uh, again, Hiles blew them off. And that's, that's when they, uh, they decided to approach, uh, Dr. Sumner with the story. Wow. So you're questioning people about Hiles.

    Let me, what was the reaction like? Were people afraid to talk about it? Were they defensive, defending him? What kind of stuff did you encounter? I only had, uh, two pastors who spoke, uh, about Hiles freely. Um, both told me that, um,

    you know, that it was a very sad thing, that it was unbiblical, and that they had, um,

34. 35:31

    separated their ministry, uh, from Hiles's. Um, I literally had pastors, uh, hang up on me. Um, and, um,

    um, you know, a few of them, uh, you know, would throw out, cried lines, like, well, uh, I'm just on God's side of the matter. And, uh, we'll let God work it out, uh, things along those lines. Uh, so a lot of them really, um, were, uh, were unprepared to, uh,

    defend their positions. And I must say that I sensed a lot of fear in many of them. Um, um, I sensed that, uh, well, you know, a couple of my deacons are, uh, Hiles Anderson graduates, or, uh,

    you know, I've got a big donor in the church who just loves Jack Hiles. And, um, they were, uh, they were afraid of, of reprisals or being ostracized. Because, again, back then, um, in many communities, um, there was just one independent Baptist church.

35. 36:42

    And if the people in the neighboring town were against you, then you were out there all by yourself. Yeah. So as your article began spreading and Sumner's article began spreading,

    um, what was your pushback from the, your sort of Lord, but also the fundamental press and how they responded to what was going on?

    Well, back then the sort of the Lord was the fundamental press. And, um, I had a, I had a good relationship with, uh, with Dr. Hudson.

    Um, he understood that I was there to do a job. He didn't really like many of my conclusions. Uh, but, uh, I stayed in touch with him until, uh, his death. And, um, I count Dr. John Reynolds, who was Hudson's associate for many years. Uh, as a friend. Uh, so, um,

    you know, I just tried to be a professional about it. Um, but at the same time, um,

36. 37:46

    I could see that, um, they were very leery of the whole, um, Hiles incident. And, um, were honestly, um, really, uh, protective of their own ministries at that point. Hmm.

    Hmm. So can you tell us, and, and for those who don't know who was Robert Sumner and what relationship did he have with the sword of the war? Well, uh, Robert Sumner, uh, uh, was a, uh, was a pastor. He was, uh,

    kind of loosely aligned with the JARBC, um, which is the general association of regular Baptist churches. Uh, they're pretty strong in the Midwest. And, um, uh,

    he had, uh, worked with John R. Rice, uh, for a number of years. And in the final years of, uh, Dr. Rice's life, uh,

    Dr. Sumner returned, uh, to Murfreesboro and worked on the sword of the Lord with, uh, with Curtis Hudson.

    And, um, to not to embellish it, but there was real hatred involved between those two.

37. 39:02

    Um, there had been a power struggle and, um, Sumner had lost, um, Sumner claimed that, um, he was never interested in succeeding Dr.

    Rice as the sword of the Lord that, uh, Dr. Hudson had been chosen for that. But in the conflict that followed, um, Jack Hiles had intervened on, on Hudson's behalf. So while I believe that, uh, Dr. Sumner was, um,

    doing what he believed was right and doing what he believed God wanted him to, that, um, there was, uh, there was no love lost, uh, between either of those gentlemen. But I guess in my way of thinking, um, a lot of, uh,

    writers, uh, in the independent Baptist, uh, movement at that time, uh, really couldn't have, uh, been as, uh, as decisive and as, uh,

    as thorough as Dr. Sumner was because they were in awe of Jack Hiles. So what happened between, uh,

38. 40:20

    the sort of Lord and Bob Jones university and what was the division that happened there? Well, um, the, the previous year, I'm thinking 1988,

    uh, the sword had held its conference at BJU and it had a great turnout and they were scheduled to come back, uh, in 89. But after this came out, um, the, uh, you know, the BJU administration said, uh,

    Hiles isn't, isn't going to be allowed. You'll have to carry on without him. So, uh, Dr. Hudson, uh, uh, pulled, uh, pulled, uh, pulled the sword conference, uh, out of, uh, Greenville, South Carolina and, uh, went North, uh,

    to, uh, a little, uh, uh, church in North Carolina. And it's been held there ever since.

    In fact, it was, uh, the latest sword conference, uh, was held there just last month. Yes. In Walker town, gospel. I bet you walk. Yep. Gospel light Baptist church.

39. 41:24

    I've been there many times. Uh, I have been to many sword conferences and, uh, I actually went to gospel light in Salisbury, which is about an hour away from gospel light in Walker town, gospel light in Walker town, planted gospel light in Salisbury.

    Uh, after about 10 years of it being in existence, they planted a little church over there. Uh, so I'm very familiar with that.

    And, uh, with that area, uh, got lots of friends over there. Um, and I really think that, that just explaining that gives some of our listeners, this idea surrounding the division that can happen so quickly in fundamentalism over one person, over a small tertiary issue, um, of one person, all

    of a sudden you've got whole fractions of this groups that are divided over this issue, um,

    which really just should have been handled pretty easily. Um, and so the struggle that I have, the struggle that I think our listeners have is if serious allegations were made as Robert Sutton puts out and pastors hear these things, they see these things.

40. 42:28

    We know that the articles are spreading. Uh, why did best pastors not say, well, let's just investigate it. Let's find the truth. Let's figure out what's going on.

    You know, that's a good question. Uh, I believe there are several factors that can, first of all, um, your average independent fundamental pastor,

    uh, to his credit is working 60 to 80 hour weeks to, uh, to build a church. Also, um, they don't want to make waves. Um, they, uh,

    again, because the IFB limits itself to so much to who it will fellowship with. I mean, it's incredible. I, I remember, uh, taking a trip to Italy, uh, years ago and visiting one of our, um, missionaries there. And, uh, he, uh,

    he, he had to clarify, yeah, he's really good friends with this church of God, uh, missionary there, but he's not involved in their doctrine. They, they, they're just friends because basically we're both here to, you know, to tell people about Jesus.

41. 43:37

    And so the isolation is one thing. Uh, fear is another. Remember, these were men who would get up behind the pulpits. Uh, they would speak out against, uh, cigarettes, alcohol, uh, rock music,

    uh, Pat Robertson, Jim Baker, but something in their own midst, they kind of wanted to, uh, turn a blind eye. And that was, that was very disappointing to me.

    You know, um, from my perspective, you know, I surrendered to preach at a pastor's conference.

    Uh, I mean, at a, at a youth conference at first back is when I was 13, I went to house Anderson for two and a half years as a student. And even years after I had left, I had never heard any of this controversy. It's like, it was swept under the rug.

    Nobody ever talked about it. Um, and so the question is, did house become bigger than accountability?

42. 44:46

    I'd say so. Um, the, uh, uh, I would at least, uh, have checked it out. I mean, Roger, I am a journalist.

    Uh, you know, I, I was a soldier for a long time as well. And I like being thorough, but, um, I think that the defense among the pro house pastors

    that I got most of the time was, well, he couldn't have done that. He wouldn't have done that.

    And of course I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, this guy's a man, you know, we all, um, are clothed in flesh and we all are subject to the temptations of the flesh. It's not an excuse, but it's something that, that we all encounter.

    And yet they put Hiles on a pedestal above all this, which is very dangerous as you both well know. Yeah. They, they made him an idol in their own world.

43. 45:52

    And everything he said was like a voice from God. Um, and they, they worshiped the ground. He walked on.

    I mean that there's a reason why every book he came out with, it sold a million copies because every pastor in the country had to get a copy of his book to see what he had to say, to see how their ministry had to be done. Um, because they, they worshiped everything.

    So, uh, we want to look into the, the allegations and the evidence that you found most compelling. Um, so we want to carefully move into these specific allegations.

    We don't want to simply repeat the accusations. Uh, we want to know the evidence that sort of you personally examine and what caused you to believe that the allegations deserve serious considerations. Um, so first we want to start with Walter or Walt Hanford. Uh, what happened when Walt confronted Hiles?

44. 46:43

    Well, Dr. Hanford told me that, um, Hiles just wouldn't speak to him about it. Just, uh, nope, nope, nope. Uh, and kind of cowered away from the situation. Now we don't picture Hiles is cowering away from anything because he's fearless. Yeah. You know, he's God's man. And, um, so Dr.

    Hanford told me, you know, following, uh, the, uh, the example in Matthew 18 that he approached, uh, Hiles, uh, alongside, uh, Dr. Ed Nelson, a longtime Colorado pastor. And, uh, Hiles did pretty much the same thing, uh, to them. He just, uh, refused to, to answer, uh, any allegations.

    So, um, to me, that was, um, that was very telling. And, and over the years, when, when I've discussed, uh, this with pro Hiles pastors, nobody's given me, um, a, a good reason why Hiles, uh,

    wouldn't be accountable to, to his fellow pastors. Remember, these were gentlemen that he often, uh, shared the pulpits with.

45. 47:58

    They run boards together. And, uh, one would think that Hiles would at least, uh, try to clear himself. But again, um, he, uh, he cowered away from it. So that, to me, that was very telling. Let's go over the Nizchik family.

    Vic, his wife, his kids. What did you find out there? Did you have any conversations or anything to, uh, report as far as the, as far as they go? Well, I did talk to Vic quite a bit. As you know, that, um, later on Vic put out, uh, uh, a book called, uh,

    um, about his time with, uh, with Hiles. And, uh, it was, uh, it was compelling in itself. And then of course I, I met, uh, Boyle Glover who, uh, put out Fundamental Seduction, uh, which also chronicles, uh,

    uh, a lot of Hiles misdeeds. And, uh, but when talking with Vic, uh, Vic was a very excitable man.

46. 49:03

    He was someone who had been, uh, injured. Uh, you could tell that he was, uh, he was a broken man in many respects. But, um, he was very convincing to me. And then when he was very willing, I said, Hey Vic, you know,

    uh, I know Jenny won't talk to me about this, but, uh, can I talk to Jack and Judy? And he said, of course you can. And he gave me their phone numbers right away. And, uh, uh, like I said, uh, talking to Judy especially was very, um,

    uh, was very emotional. Uh, because, uh, I mean, imagine, uh, finding yourself, uh,

    in a conflict between your two parents. And knowing that this conflict was created by Jack Hiles, a man that, uh,

    you know, you grew up listening to and you were taught to revere. And realizing that, uh, he was the architect of the destruction,

47. 50:14

    destruction of your family. Wow. And, uh, I believe the name of that book is called the wizard of God, the wizard of God. Yes.

    Yeah. So if you can find it, go find it. I know it's listed on Amazon, but there's no books that you can purchase. So maybe, maybe an eBay find a gold find somewhere in a thrift bookstore. If you can find it. Um, you also told us that you had come across, um,

    the Coleman pullback recording. Yes. And you said that it was one of the most damning piece of evidence that you'd ever come across. Absolutely.

    Explain this recording. How did you come about it? And then what does it tell us in this recording? Well, um, this, uh, this recording is, uh, is on YouTube.

    And if you haven't heard it, I would recommend that you do so. But Dave Coleman was a Pennsylvania pastor and unlike most of his counterparts, uh, he reached out to the players involved and tried to get his own answers.

48. 51:15

    And, uh, he knew somebody through the, the hack network and was able to call, um,

    Paul Polanco, who had been, uh, David Heil's, uh, first wife. And, um, they had a candid 45, 50 minute conversation,

    uh, about her marriage with Dave and her encounters with Jack Hiles. And I had so many people tell me that, you know, they were kind of, um, on the borderline until they heard that because it was very convincing because she spoke, uh, with such sincerity and you could tell, um,

    she knew what she was talking about and she had lived, uh, what she was talking about. So that was, uh, I believe that was very, uh, uh, damning, uh, in and of itself because again, um, pastor Coleman, um, had, uh,

    apparently made a couple copies for friends. And, uh, and then didn't realize that it was duplicated over and over and over again and sent, uh, really throughout the world.

49. 52:26

    So it was, uh, it was a really damning piece of evidence, uh, again, Kyle's, uh, Kyle's even mentioned it in, uh, in one of his responses. Um, but he did so carefully not to avoid, um, uh, confronting, um, Paula Hiles or Paula Polanco at the time. Yeah.

    We, uh, we'll try to find that and link it in our show notes if you want to go and listen to that, um, on YouTube as well. Um, that's very interesting.

    I've never, never, uh, heard of that. So I'll definitely look it up. Um, you, you attended, let's, let's circle back to the 1990 conference, the fundamentals conference that you attended. Um, you attended this conference in Millington, Tennessee. What did you see there? Um, what was the real purpose behind this, this, this conference?

    Well, it, it was billed as a, uh, uh, as a conference, uh, to rally fundamentalists, uh,

50. 53:26

    together, uh, to, to stand against the forces of evil. But basically it was, uh, um, a cheerleading, um, event for Jack Hiles. Um, I mean, just the, the open idolatry, uh, that was there just blew me away. And, um, you know, these, these pastors were, uh,

    uh, uh, just getting up one by one and, um, they would preach a message, but they would always use Hiles as an example or use it to, uh, defend Hiles. And, um, uh,

    uh, uh, I, uh, I called Dr. Sumner after I was done and I'm like, you just wouldn't believe what I subjected myself to.

    And, uh, uh, he suggested that I, that I write an article about it and I later did, but just the unbridled, uh, worship, uh, of this man.

    Uh, I mean, obviously I had been exposed to it, but to be there in person and see it, um,

51. 54:43

    was just, uh, mind boggling. And, um, it was funny because,

    um, I found a hotel to stay near the, uh, near the side of the conference.

    And, um, I showed up and I was, uh, wearing a coat and tie from a previous engagement. And, um, the, uh, the guy behind the desk said, oh, you're here for the fundamentalist conference. I said, yeah, more or less.

    And, uh, excuse me, he gave me a 15% break on my room, which I appreciated. So, um, uh, I even, um,

    they even had a luncheon one day at a, uh, at a buffet place, naturally. And, um, uh, I went and heard, I'll speak privately to these men and, uh, you know, he talked about basically, um, launching a, um, a new, uh, brand of fundamentalism. Um, and, um,

    um, you know, of course I was probably the only one who felt the way I did in the room.

52. 55:52

    So I was very careful not to react to it, but, uh, I was still just stunned that he would try to break up a whole movement just to, uh, save his own reputation. You know, the idol worship goes deep.

    I remember being at first Baptist church after brother house died and people don't believe me when I say this, but there was a, uh, a Wednesday night after dr house died that Ray young was, was preaching.

    And as he was closing the service, he prayed to Jack house and, uh, he did it behind the pulpit at first Baptist. And I was, even then when I was a student there, I was like, there's something, something wrong with that. Uh, but let's move on. So as you're pursuing this story,

    desert storm happens. So what happened to your investigation? Well, um, I had started a new chapter in my life at that point.

53. 56:50

    Uh, I had, uh, taken the law school, uh, aptitude, uh,

    uh, test and, uh, had, uh, posted a decent score on it. I'd gotten admitted into night law school and I was gonna, um, try to get a degree because at that same time, um, I was engaged to the lady who's been my wife for 34 years. And, um, uh,

    you know, I wanted to, uh, to make a better life for us. And, um, but all that was kind of dashed when, uh, I got the call one day at the newspaper and it was my national guard commander. Uh, he gave me a, uh,

    you know, a, a two word code and I went to my editor and say, well, I'm going to be leaving in the next couple of weeks. So I was, uh, uh, I was in Saudi Arabia most of the time for desert storm and, uh, was there from basically January 91 to, uh,

54. 57:51

    uh, June of 91. And when I, when I got back from, uh, from that, uh, my wife and I got formally engaged and, um, it was then that I realized that somebody needed to chase this story and somebody,

    you know, really needed to run it down to the end. But, um, it just couldn't be me because again, you know, when you get married, uh, you have a responsibility to take care of, uh, your wife and your family. And, uh, I just couldn't, uh,

    devote, uh, the amount of time, uh, that I had been devoting to it. And I was sad in a way, but honestly, in, in 1991, the lines were pretty well drawn. If those who supported Hiles, um,

    they had rejected all the evidence. That, that was put out. Uh, they had rejected the Sumner articles. They had, uh, rejected Boyle Glover's book, Vick Nischik's book, um, the other evidence that, uh, that had come to light.

55. 59:01

    And, um, uh, I just didn't see any way of, uh, being a contributor to help resolving that nonsense. And here we are 25 years after Hiles death and we're still discussing it. Yeah. Yeah.

    So as we sort of begin wrapping this up a little bit, uh, you said something in your email correspondence to me that I really caught my attention. You said that houses, misdeeds and bad theology need to be continually exposed. Why?

    I agree. I'm not saying I don't agree with it, but, but why would you, why was the statement so important? And why do you believe this in your own heart? Well, I believe this because,

    um, I had a little time on my hands a few weeks ago and I listened, uh, to the sort of the Lord conference. And here we are 25 years later and there's still speakers at the sort of the Lord conference, praising Jack Hiles.

56. 1:00:00

    You, you go into, uh, uh, IFB churches, which I don't do very often now. Thank God. Amen. And, uh, you, uh,

    you see pictures of Hiles up in their, in their hall of fame. Um, I politely asked one pastor's like, aren't you kind of afraid to, to put that up? And it's like, well, they didn't never prove nothing. So, um, I mean, the, uh, um,

    but what's more important is the Hilesian theology is still out there. The, the, uh, excuse me, the easy believe ism the, um,

    the fact that, uh, you know, you coax somebody to stay, to say a prayer, um, because they know they'll get a hamburger at McDonald's and boom, they're saved. And, uh, you make no effort to follow up on them. Uh, you never check on them. Um, it's, uh,

    it's a sad state of affairs, but it's still ongoing today and it's still

57. 1:01:09

    traceable back to Jack Hiles. Plus I wonder about this current generation of the, of the hardcore fundamentalists. What happens to them when they're exposed to this evidence?

    Well, they just said, well, you know, preacher messed that up or, uh, maybe I ought to go to church somewhere else, but I'm really concerned that they turn away, uh, from Christ altogether. And that is a, uh,

    a temptation by some I've seen, uh, others who have, uh, launched efforts against, uh, a college or a ministry and they've become so disheartened that they left the faith altogether. And that's frightening. Do you think churches still follow Hiles methods today without even realizing where the methods came from? I agree.

    I think they do because again, they're taught, this is how you build a big thriving church.

    Uh, this is how you get it done. Now, none of this is ever found in the new Testament, but, um, they have, uh,

58. 1:02:23

    committed, uh, uh, Hiles, uh, uh, plan, uh, to many, uh,

    uh, many of their own, uh, pursuits. And as you said, many of them don't even realize it. Yeah.

    One of the things you said just down, uh, stood out to me because you're talking about that younger generation and hearing these things can lead them to leave the faith. Um, our, my college pastor, Eric Pacey, um,

    when I was in college, he would always, I went to first Baptist church of heaven, Indiana. I went to Hiles Anderson. He was excited.

    He did. He'd say it just like that. And, uh, you know, I sat under the preaching of Jack Hiles and all these men. Well, shortly after everything happened with Jack Scott, um,

    years ago, he had come and done a youth conference or a youth camp for me and was speaking. And when he got up, he said, when I went to college in Indiana and never mentioned the name of the college, never mentioned the name of the church.

59. 1:03:23

    Now I knew what he was talking about, but he had enough wisdom to know if I mentioned the name of that college, some kid out there is going to Google it and they're going to see what's going on right now.

    And they're going to be like, Oh, you went there. I don't want to have anything to do with you and listen to you. So he had enough wisdom to say that,

    um, which is good in that way. I mean, at least he's, he's learning a little bit. Let me interject that I do not put Hiles Anderson college on my resume.

    Yeah. Well, I mean the, the pastor who married, uh, my wife and myself, uh, he was a hack graduate, but had thankfully evolved around, um,

    beyond that. And you never heard him mention it, uh, in his sermons. He never mentioned Jack Hiles. He never mentioned Hiles Anderson college.

60. 1:04:18

    Um, you know, he, he was just trying to move on because again, um, when I first heard that, uh, this fellow was, uh, was coming to pastor our church, I'm like, but he's a hack grad.

    But thankfully, like I said, he had moved beyond it and I really enjoyed his ministry. Yeah.

    Well, let me give a one closing final thought. I'm going to ask a question and then Brett's got one final question for you and then we'll finish this episode up. So thank you for coming on and giving us the story behind your story.

    Um, and you really gave us the purpose of really not just re,

    uh, revisiting Jack Hiles over the past, but, uh, really giving us a good overview of what it is. And it's laid the foundation for our next several episodes. As we begin to walk through what Hiles actually taught in his theology classes and his pastoral authority classes and the way he taught.

61. 1:05:20

    So when in the way he taught church growth, the way he taught separation, uh, his leadership method, and even the ministry side of it, uh, we're going to walk through all that with the house church manual.

    So the question that I have for you, if, if you could sit down with a young pastor, uh, one thing that you would tell him, um,

    before he began reading house today, let's say he, he was just infatuated with him and I want to learn from this man and I want to know how he took this church from nothing to 40,000 people or

    whatever it was during its heyday and, and how they were able to have the largest bus ministry and the largest Sunday school at the time. What would you tell him before he began? John McClendon I would, uh, clearly, uh, discuss, um, Hiles doctrinal errors because,

62. 1:06:11

    you know, we can, we can speculate about, uh, his sexual life or his, uh, financial improprieties. Those are all valid, but the heresy that he preached,

    especially the last few years of his ministry, it's there, it's on tape. And in some cases, uh, in print, uh,

    to me, one of the most, uh, blasphemous things that Hiles ever said was in his, where are the other nine sermon, uh, where he equated, uh, the, uh, the folks that Jesus had healed and nine of them had gone away and only 10 came back to thank him.

    And basically his conclusion was, well, if Jesus could only get one of 10, how do you expect me to do any better? Hmm. And I mean, um, to me that, that's clearly, um, uh, blasphemy, although I'm not a theologian, but, uh, so I would, I would focus on, on those points.

63. 1:07:12

    I mean, a lot of people make fun of Hiles, uh, you know, for this and that the bandaid test and, um, everything else, but, um, you know, that's what really counts is the, the doctrinal error.

    And you see how that's played out in our country, because as y'all know, being pastors, there's a lot of folks walking around America today who think they're saved. Somebody let them in a sinner's prayer and, uh, and dumped them, but they're not.

    And a lot of those, uh, are as a result of Hiles and his influence on the church.

    You know, they, uh, one of the things I was going to mention earlier is that when I was a bus captain for first Baptist church, that, uh, we would have the bus kids on there and we would teach them bus songs about Dr. Hiles and we would sing song.

64. 1:08:10

    It was good for Dr. Hiles. It's good enough for me. And, and we would sing, you know, teach these kids hymns about him. And that's how deep it ran.

    Uh, but the, the last question that I want to ask you is what would you say to a pastor who approaches it like this? You know what? I don't care about the controversies.

    I had the law at world's largest Sunday school. I just want to use the methods because the methods work. I don't care about the controversies. What would you say to someone like that? Well, I tell them the methods may appear to work in the short term, but, uh,

    check up, check out the longterm. Where are all these people? Why isn't with all this, uh, massive salvation, um, movement, uh, over the years, why isn't the, the Hammond and Chicago area, uh, one of the most godly, uh, parts of the world?

65. 1:09:08

    And, um, I mean, it's just, um, it, like I said, you can draw a crowd, but it's keeping people in church, having them be faithful,

    having them raising families in the church. Um, I, uh, I visited a church in, uh, Maryland once, um,

    Southern Baptist church. And, um, I was just so awestruck that, um, you had the descendants of people who had started this church 150 years earlier, still attending that church.

    You had five and six generations and that's the desired longterm effect is, uh, bringing families into the fold, uh, bringing up a new generation. Yeah. I mean, that's great. Yeah.

    That's a huge takeaway for us. And, you know, as we begin to, as we finish up this episode, uh, we don't want it just to simply be about was how's a good man or a bad man, right things or wrong things.

    What we want to look at over the next multiple weeks is what happens when a ministry model becomes so influential that its methods are idolized and are accepted without testing them against scripture.

66. 1:10:26

    Um, and many people have, have done that. They've taken the methods and they've taken what was done and said, and they've just said, this is the gospel truth and we're going to go with it. Um, and we want to deep dive into that and thank you, Lee, for coming on and sharing your insight, sharing your thoughts.

    Um, we want to, uh, is there any final thoughts from you before we close everything down?

    I would tell people what, what I tell myself that you just got to look to Jesus. Amen.

    Uh, I'm a, I'm a former, uh, police reporter, uh, combat veteran. I have seen the, the very worst in people, but, uh, Jesus is, uh, is righteous. He's faithful.

    Uh, he loves us. He saved us and he's preparing a place for us in heaven. Don't get distracted by,

    uh, a lot of the things that are going on and just keep looking to Jesus.

67. 1:11:29

    Amen. That's fantastic. Well, thank you again for coming on and hopefully we get, uh, uh, you guys have enjoyed this today and until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Found my new name, found that good grace,

    found that healing and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. Found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you.

    Thanks for listening to the 4-Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed the content of the podcast, please do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing the podcast on whatever podcast platform you listen to. ..

Auto-generated transcript · 10,654 words. May contain errors. Select a timestamp to play from that moment.