224. Interview with Bridget Trammell on Her New Book "Trigger Warning"

Welcome back to the 4 Freedom Podcast. It's a great day to be alive here in podcast land. The sun sign is shining outside and we are so thankful that you're here listening with us today. We've got, let's see, man, we're going to Orlando soon, aren't we, James? Brett, I was just on the phone with Jake yesterday who's sharing the room with us, our house with us. But, yeah, we're like two weeks out. For me, I'm like one, two, one, two, three weeks away from being in Orlando. I think it's June 3rd. It's going to be an awesome time. I've been having guys, our association is going to be at our house one night hanging out with us. They've already, I've got like four or five guys that are like, hey, we're bringing our families over. We're going to have a great time. My wife said that that's her favorite nights of the week is when we have guys come over. She's joking. She doesn't like people around too much. She's like, we're on vacation. What are people doing coming over? But that's just who I am. I've got to have people come over. We've got to hang out. We've got two boxes of cigars that I just got in for the event, 10 of each of our cigars. Speaking of cigars, Brett, I want to thank everyone who has supported us. Orders have been coming in this month as we're running 15% off. It helps support us in everything that we're doing from our books to the podcast to just sending kids, Brett's college, sorry, sending kids, Brett's kids to college. And eventually my kids to college. Like all this is helping it out. It's helping expand our reach and promote some things. And so we thank you for doing those things and helping us out. We're still running. We've got two weeks left of the 15% off. So if you haven't got any, go and check that out and buy some. It's a great deal right now for you. Father's Day is coming up. You can support that by getting your dad a great for Freedom Cigar. So yeah. Absolutely. And let's see. I don't think that we have anything else going on in the future. But hey, when's your vacation Bible school? Vacation Bible school is the Sunday I get back from the convention. So June 14th through 18th is my Bible school. So for me, my Bible school is a Sunday before the convention. And then we end Bible school. And then the next morning I come to Orlando. So ours is before, y'all's is after. But we had to shorten it a little bit this year. We're doing Sunday night through Wednesday night. But vacation Bible school is always a great time. You know, it's something we look forward to. And yeah, I'm looking forward to our interview today. Yeah. Interview is great. Before we do that, I had someone reach out to me. We have some merch as well. If people want to buy shirts and hoodies and hats and mugs, you can go to our merch store. It's through TeePublic. The link's on there. If you ever want to support us that way. I have a For Freedom hoodie. You've seen it, obviously. It is the most comfortable hoodie I've ever worn. I've bought others. It's the most comfortable one. So we've got great merch. Yeah. So if you want to go check that out, you can get it any color you want. It's a great thing there. I just wanted to plug that for a minute as people are going into their summer. We hope that you join us and meet up with us. As I share at the end of this interview, if there's everything we can do, reach out to us on social media. Like or share. The interview we've got today is with Bridget Trammell. Recently came out with a book called Trigger Warning. And we are excited about having her come on and share her thoughts, share her experience. If you haven't bought the book, it's on Amazon for I think 15 or 20 bucks. I can't remember. Great book. She's very vulnerable. It's 250 pages. It's one of those books, Brett, as you read. There are some books like you have to force yourself to finish. You get started and you're like, man, I can't believe I started this book. I don't want to not finish it because then that's just another book that I've got that I didn't finish. This is one of those books. I read it. I'm not a fast reader. I read it in about three days, maybe four days total. But I couldn't put it down. I would read 90 pages and I'm like, I don't want to stop, but I've got other things to do. So I've got to stop. And then the next day I'd pick it back up and I'd read another 80, 90 pages. And that's how I read the book. And I just wanted to continue into it because I wanted to see where the story was leading. She's very vulnerable and opened it up with her story. And so it's a very good read if you want to. It's very easy read, but very vulnerable. The warning trigger warning is on there for a reason because you go through some ups and downs of the IFB and how she was raised. She doesn't name drop a lot of people. She only name drops just a couple of close people. You can sort of put the pieces together of who she's talking about if you're familiar with the IFB movement. But her dad's Lou Rossi and just a big powerhouse in the IFB, pastoring a church now. And you're going to be delighted by the book, but also the interview. So hopefully this helps out today as we get started on this interview. Looking forward to it. Let's go. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, he set me free. Not for chains, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, he set me free. Not for chains, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, he set me free. Not for chains, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the show. We are excited about having Ms. Bridget Trammell with us today. Bridget is a world-renowned author with her first book coming out recently. She's a counselor, a speaker. Now with her recent book, Trigger Warning, she is passionate about helping people heal from the effects of abuse and control inside and outside of the IFB movement, where she was raised in, where we were raised in. And we are thrilled to have her on with us today. Bridget, why don't you give us just a little bit about yourself and your upbringing and how you came out of the IFB world. Let our audience know who you are and let us know. We'll jump into the book talk in just a minute. Yes. Thanks so much, guys, for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. I promise God anywhere I got a chance to share my story, I would always share it. And yes, I did grow up in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. My dad was a pastor in that movement. We ended up traveling all over the country to hundreds of churches. We had an evangelistic ministry. So every week we were in a different independent Baptist church. We had a big RV that had five slide outs. We pulled it with a big Western Flyer semi truck. So we were just rolling and play the piano, play the violin. And we had CDs and all this. So we're like a traveling family in the independent Baptist world. And that is kind of what I knew. I did grow up very much shaped by the fear of divine punishment, high control, the performance culture, obedience. I'm sure you guys understand that as well. Went to multiple IFB colleges. There was a very heavy emphasis on outward behavior and appearances. And you learn pretty quickly what was acceptable and what was not, especially as a woman in the independent Baptist movement. And if you didn't really fit into that mold, shame was really the tool that kind of kept you in line. And a lot of people think that, you know, trauma might just come from one catastrophic event. We see these things like, you know, shiny happy people or let us pray P-R-E-Y, these documentaries of abuse. But a lot of our story is not just being molested or some big catastrophic event. It came through sort of a death by a thousand cuts. Little moments that are shaped that kind of gave us the mindset of using your voice is rebellion or your intuition can't be trusted or God is disappointed in you or his love has to be earned. And so some of these things really set in an early age and kind of shaped where I ended up. I married an independent Baptist pastor and eventually was traveling with him on the road. And that's kind of where my story begins in trigger warning. And you've read, I'm sure, what I've talked about there. Yeah. Yeah. I've read all that and it's been fantastic. I went to school with your sister and Brett interacting with some people as well. And we're just thankful that you are taking the time to come on and talk to us. One of the things, and we're going to talk about it, is just the vulnerability that you write. I've wrote a book and I'm in the process of writing a second book right now. And that process of wanting to be vulnerable is there, but it's hard as well. And so I appreciate as you walk through that, the vulnerability that you gave. And I know it's helping people. I've seen the comments online and a lot of people have recommended it, which is a great thing. I've seen you number one on the Amazon bestseller for like 14 days in a row, which is incredible. That's awesome that people like us would write a book and people would want to buy it and listen to us. And so Brett, why don't you get started with talking about the book and we'll lead it off from there. So Bridget, I wanted to ask you, what led to you writing Trigger Warning? And as you wrote it, what was it like for you personally to revisit some of these experiences and actually put them pen to paper? That's a great question. And I'll be completely vulnerable and honest with you guys. It took me three years to put it all on paper. And there were trauma responses. There were times where I was in the fetal position, shaking and crying, reliving some of this really intense trauma that you can read about in the book. The name of it is Trigger Warning, so that should tell you everything. But there's disclaimers in the front and resources for domestic violence and sexual things. So it's a very explosive book. And it took a lot of courage for me to write. And after years, I'll be honest with you, of my own trauma, you know, with the hypervigilance and trying to kind of keep that fear monster in the cage, the fear monster of people's opinions or of keeping that perfect image that we were all sort of taught to do in these high performance cultures, or even some of the villains in my story that I knew would try to discredit me. I finally found myself in a safe place in life to be able to go to trauma counseling myself. I went to trauma counseling for years. I did EMDR therapy. I explored all of these memories, and it was not easy. But after putting in the work, I was able to tell my story. And again, it took me three years to hit the upload button. And I was terrified because putting myself out there and my intimate trauma experiences. But I did find that once I told my story and I did it shaking and scared and trembling, I found that stories are contagious. You know, when you put out your story, even if you're scared to do it, it gives other people permission to tell theirs. And I'm seeing this tidal wave of storytelling and healing. I'm getting message after message after message of people who are saying, seeing you use your voice has helped me find mine. And, you know, courage begets courage. And I'm so excited that this book has really been a catalyst for helping people unlock their voice. Because so often we see in these holiness movements or these religious trauma settings that the voice is silenced. And the voice of one victim can be easily silenced. But together, if we all use our voice, we become this army of truth that cannot be ignored. And that's what this book is really meant to do, is to antagonize people to use their voice and tell their story. Yeah, that's great. And I love the vulnerability. Like I said, as I walked through that and read some of it, it took me like three or four days to read through it. Every night I'd come home and I'd go, Allie, I got to tell you this story. Like, I got to tell you about this. And so she finally picked it up and she was like, how much detail is she going to get into? Like, she's asking me this. And I said, listen, let me tell you this story. And so I'm like telling her all these stories that are in there. I said, you're going to get to it. But like the story of you on the high 85 and riding down the road. Oh, my. I had to put the book down. Like, I was in tears reading through that part of the story because I'm thinking, how can someone do this to someone else? The amount of pain that put the issue through. I felt that coming through the page. And so thankful, again, that you were vulnerable in telling that. You didn't have to. But you were willing to share that. So I'm thankful for that as well. And I know many of you are going to help. They're intense stories that will make you cry. Obviously, they're very devastating to read and difficult to read. But there's also some humorous stories in there where, I don't know if you've read the part where, I had just become a single mom. I had fled from my husband in the middle of the night with a two-year-old baby and a two-week-old baby. And really leaving my husband meant leaving the IFB movement and everything I had ever known. There was a low-key type of shunning that occurred around divorce and the sin of not submitting to your husband, no matter how off the grid he might be at the time. But I remember I had just recovered from a C-section two weeks ago. I'm in severe pain. I've got these two babies. And I still wore skirts, you know, because we grew up wearing skirts. And I remember the first day, like it was yesterday, vividly, I remember thinking, I think God is not going to be mad at me if I wear these pajama pants to the grocery store because it's much easier to wrangle two very small babies at the grocery store. And I remember my heart pounding and going to the grocery store and thinking, I hope no men are lusting after me, you know, postpartum. And, you know, there's even some humorous stories in there that I think people can relate to, having been in the holiness culture. I know that, you know, we're sitting here talking before you got on the interview, and I haven't had a chance to read the book yet. But James is telling me stories from the book before you got on. And I had to pick my job a couple of times. So I'm looking forward to reading the book myself. Yes, thank you. So as you, this is, people ask me this question as well. And I've only wrote two books now. My second one will be coming out soon. But the question is always, how do you start writing a book, right? How do you begin this process of putting pen to paper and begin doing it? And I thought the idea, the framework for how you wrote the book was fantastic with the sports analogy, the coach, the timeout, the subbing a player in. What was the reason behind that? What drew you to that approach of why you decided to use that to communicate your message? I'm sure sports were big for you as well. For me, I'm a coach as well. But sort of share that process. And then we're going to start walking through the nuts and bolts of the book here in a minute. Sure, absolutely. Well, you know, you're an author, James. When you start a book, it's kind of just a giant verbal dump on paper. That's where you start. And for me, of course, writing these really intricate, deep, traumatizing stories, I had to just dump it all on paper. But it's funny you mentioned the sports analogy, because when I first began my book, I had a huge health coaching company with nine offices, 75 employees all across the Carolinas. So I had initially called the title of the book Coaching Me. And I thought it was going to be this really cool, like, girl, wash your face, like, self-help smiling on the front. And my editor, halfway through editing my book, he said, this is really kind of a bait and switch, because it's got this, like, cute smile on the front. It says, coaching me. It looks so friendly. And then you pick it up, and it's all these horrific stories of, like, domestic violence and trauma. And you're checking off the trauma that you have, and it, like, hits you right in the face. So at the last minute, we actually changed the name to trigger warning, because when you pick up the book, it's more about heart pounding adrenaline, and it kind of smacks you right into the truth. So the disclaimer is actually in the title, trigger warning. That's how that came about. And I know that, you know, all of us that, you know, have been in the IFB, grew up in the IFB, we are intimately familiar with trauma, for sure. And I, you know, in chapter one, you talk about how people can build their lives around trauma, how they think, relate, see the world. You actually state that trauma doesn't define you, it refines you. So I just want to ask, what's the first step toward breaking that pattern? Hmm. I have to say the first step of healing to trauma is awareness, you know, because we're only as sane as we know the truth about ourselves and about others. And so many people don't want to acknowledge that they were abused. The hardest thing to hear is you're a victim of abuse, whether it's sexual or physical or spiritual or emotional, because what hits you at your core is that if I was abused, that means I was unloved, unworthy, unacknowledged, unimportant. And then that also hits every trauma, every abuse is inevitably religious trauma because we go, why did God do this to me? You know, inevitably. So if we can go toward that pain and accept the truth that we are victims of trauma, then we can see it for what it is, reframe it and heal from it because you can't heal what you can't feel. Trauma is not a memory. It's a body part. If you've ever read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, that's a fantastic place to start because when we suppress trauma, we have a host of trauma responses, anywhere from hypervigilance to emotional dysregulation to putting up a wall or even health problems, stomach problems. So acknowledging it and going toward the pain is the first step. I always tell my clients, you know, alligators sit on the bottom of a lake or a swamp and every once in a while, every couple hours, an alligator will let out a snort. And you'll see these tiny bubbles on top of the water. That's what trauma is like. It's like, I don't really care what behaviors are exhibiting. I care about the alligator down below. Let's figure out what is at the bottom of the lake lurking. What memory, what core belief do you hold from an early child that is causing these trauma responses? And when we explore what's down there, then we can really allow that alligator to move on and move on and heal and find freedom from these trauma responses. Well, let me ask you, what tends to be the biggest obstacle toward taking that first step of acknowledgement for people? In chapter one, I have two things as we're beginning the journey on my book, but there are two lies that often we tell ourselves. The first lie is my life isn't worth changing. And a lot of times people don't understand abuse. They don't. So the first thing I do in my book is define it. And abuse is anytime your boundaries are disrespected, controlled, manipulated, or violated. So the farther that boundary is pushed, the more intense the abuse becomes. Of course, rape and murder, those are some of the worst violations of our boundaries. We call those big T traumas, you know, but there are so many little T trauma, micro abuses or micro traumas that occur in everyday life that oftentimes we don't want to acknowledge them. You know, a lot of times I talk to women who go, well, he only hit me one time or he's a great dad. He provides for the family. Or, you know, I know my mother-in-law is triangulated with my husband, but she doesn't know any better and she's ripping apart our family. These little things that we kind of excuse oftentimes keep us from living life to the fullest and putting down boundaries. And then the second lie that we tell ourselves is it's too hard to change my life. And for some victims, this can be true. It can be dangerous for them to leave an abuser because he could hurt them or he has threatened them or there's a feeling of unsafety or they don't have resources to go to. So oftentimes our brain even minimizes that abuse to protect us from the truth of it. Or there may be a type of loyalty to the abuser. So sometimes victims don't really grasp the fact that they have the ability to put down a boundary or walk away. Sometimes they're stuck in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn trying to please that abuser or they just don't still feel safe. So I have in my book on page 23, a way to conduct a risk assessment of what is it going to cost me to leave and what resources do I need to get in order to put these boundaries down or leave this abusive situation? I want to follow up before we get to the next question. In the book, you talk about how often you had been hurt, abused, victimized. Your husband left for days and weeks on end and then would finally come home. What was the reason? And I'll preface this after I ask the question. What was the reason it took you so long to continue putting up with abuse in order to move on from the hurt? And the reason I ask that is that COVID happened in 2019, 2020, March of 2020. My pastor resigned. I was the associate pastor. He resigned in June of 2020. And I became the interim step-in guy as we're trying to walk through all that. Then the next Sunday, after I preached my first Sunday as the interim guy, the middle guy, I had three different women come to me. One husband was absent, wasn't there. He was there, but he never really did anything. The second one, I mean, they were going through some verbal abuse. The third one was physical abuse. I mean, actually getting hurt. And I began advising the one that was in the physical abuse. I said, immediately leave. Like, you've got to get away. Like, you are being tormented right now. And we began to walk through with these three individuals, three families. One of them, they're still married. They made a full reconciliation. The other two have gotten divorces. But walking through that and counseling through that, I began to see the other side of it. I'm like, how did this happen? Why is this here? Why is this taking so? Like, why are you just coming to us now? Yes. So what is the mindset in a lady? And again, this is Southern Baptist Church, different from the IFB. Why would you put up with something like that for so long? What made you stay, I guess, would be the question. That's such a good question. Thank you for asking this. Because I think there are so many women out there right now under the sound of our voice that are living in an abusive situation with secret abuse, secret domestic violence, secret emotional abuse. And the number one thing that I talked to and that I experienced with an abusive situation is gaslighting. So gaslighting is causing a victim to question their perception or their memories. Okay. And a lot of times this is what abusers do. They do it to children when they molest them. They do it to women. This has happened to men that are under a narcissistic leader or narcissistic abuser is that they gaslight the victim into thinking that either it's their fault or it's not that bad. And their shame shrouded in the situation, there is the fear often inflicted on them that if they leave, it's going to be worse. And for me personally, having grown up in this holiness culture, it took me a while to shed the thinking of, A, I'm hurting the cause of Christ if I tell this story. Right. Because so many people looked up to my husband. We had over 300 people saved in our evangelistic ministries the first year. So what would that do to those people? And I've talked to other trauma victims that have told me women who are being choked out by their husband and they lose consciousness and they say, and the last thing I thought was no one can find out because it will hurt the cause of Christ. Let me tell you something. Pain, all pain originates in sin. Pain is not from God. God designed a perfect world. Right. So all of these things that we feel that are pain originated from an evil, dark place and we are not hurting the cause of Christ. The Bible says to mark them that offend you. But oftentimes we're brainwashed and gaslighted into thinking that if we hold the leader accountable, we are hurting the cause of Christ. Number two, often it does not feel safe to leave. And that goes back to the nervous system where have you ever seen the movie, The Village? I feel like it's the most accurate depiction of religious trauma. Have you seen that movie? I haven't, but I think Brett has. Yeah. So it's this village of people and there's an invisible villain that they are told they're called those we don't speak of. And everybody is trapped in this village and they're terrified. And it's like in the old timey, you know, days, all the girls are wearing big skirts and the guys are in colonial days. They're farming the land. And those we don't speak of are terrorizing them and they have to hide inside the houses and the children are afraid and the alarm sounds. Well, at the end of the movie, you find out that they don't exist, that they were created by the leaders in the village to keep everybody controlled and in this state of fear so that they wouldn't question. And at the very end of the movie, one character makes it to the edge of the woods and they step out and there are cars and 7-Elevens and they're living in this day and age. And that reminds me so much of people who don't leave these environments because they simply don't know that they can. They're in this fight or flight freeze state. And it takes a while for your nervous system to go, okay, I'm going to think cognitively and I'm going to make this decision. Because when you're in trauma, everything here in the prefrontal cortex shuts down. Everything goes to the extremities. It goes to your adrenaline, your cortisol levels start rising, your hippocampus, your hypothalamus and your amygdala, which is called your limbic system, your fight or flight system. It all goes into overdrive and you're running like you're being chased by a bull ready to leap over an electric fence. And none of the cognitive things that are our decision makers, our ability to think and reason and problem solve, none of this is working. So when a woman is constantly stuck in that trauma response, it's difficult to sort out from reality what's really happening versus the adrenaline rushes. That's great. As you, we walked into our IFB influence. So I was born and raised in it. You were born and raised in it. Brett was brought into it through a bus ministry. I was a bus kid. Yeah. Nice. And my wife was the bus kid. Oh yeah. Bus ministry for years. Right. Your dad was a prominent speaker. He came to champion all the time. I remember when he was gone. I think I bought every one of his books that he had out. I've got a box of IFB books in my second office over here. I'm sure I've got seven or eight of his revival books. And he had one that was spiral bound. I remember that one specifically. Yeah. And so you've talked about your IFB influence and how this world shaped you. I think you said you went to like seven different Bible colleges, five different Bible colleges. All of the Bibles. And through all of this and through all of the IFB world and how it shaped you, share a little bit about the struggles that you went through, not just in your life, but as others may have observed it. And on page at the very end of the book, near the end, you said something like this. It said, it's not my job to convict the hearts, fix the people or hold the world together. It's his. And I think that was one of the most profound statements in the entire book that I read, because oftentimes we feel like the weight of the world is on me. I've got to fix it. I've got to fix my husband. I've got to fix my wife. I've got to fix the church. I've got to fix the world. I've got to go reach the world. If I don't do it right. Is there not a cause? If I don't do it, no one's going to do it. And we just sort of pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and just say, I've got to go take this world by force. Yes. When in reality, God says he's the author of everything. We're just to preach and allow him to have the response up to him. And so how do you justify this with your upbringing? And then we'll talk through some specific teachings here in just a moment. Yes. I'm really glad you're asking this question because the independent fundamental Baptist movement is very misunderstood. And I hear a lot of people talking out there on podcasts and deconstructing and attacking the IFB. Right. But the independent fundamental Baptist movement was started as a counter revolution to the drug and sex culture of the 70s. So these guys who came out of that and were affected by addiction and were long-haired hippies per se, they saw the destruction of that. And it actually began with good intentions. You know, the Bill Gothard movement rose up and people started homeschooling. People started sheltering their kids. And the big mantra or subtitle of all of this holiness culture was we're protecting our families. And it was it started as a good thing. But there was one teeny tiny problem with with the way that it began is that there was just no accountability. And even good people need accountability. And these little tiny personality cults started developing and rising up. And this lack of accountability began to attract predators to the independent Baptist movement because it was independent. And there wasn't anyone patrolling and keeping things within the parameters. Power always corrupts. You know, have you ever seen that show Yellow Jackets? It's based on a true story. The soccer team crashes in the mountains. These girls, this girl's soccer team. And they're out in the wilderness and they start losing their minds and hallucinating and and making up spiritual beings in the woods. They start eating each other. Their coaches hiding out in the cave, terrified of these like middle school girls. And that's that's kind of how the high structure religious culture. It's attractive to people who have grown up with all their decisions being made for them. We see these generations repeating in the Mormons, in the IFB, in these high control environments. These kids that don't know how to make decisions because their pastor and their dad have always told them what to do. This culture also attracts dysfunctional people like addicts and alcoholics or those who are experiencing a huge lack of control, like having an affair or their their life is spinning out. They're attracted to this high control environment. And these and also also a lot of well-meaning people meander meander into these IFB churches on the corner. And and the pastor says that the King James Bible is the only Bible and they go, cool, let's go buy a Bible. And they get kind of sucked in to this culture. And so the difference between, you know, there are a lot of people that have convictions that are that choose to live to a higher standard. You know, if you want to wear a skirt, more power to you. It's not necessarily the standards that cause the problems because we all have our own standards. The difference between a cult mindset in a church and a healthy church is that there's this thought of we are the only ones with the truth. And it's this us against them mentality. And don't go to any other churches or read any other Bibles. And people go to church seeking a sense of belonging, seeking a sense of community. But and that's healthy. You know, we need that that sense of belonging, that herd mentality. Nobody wants to be outside the herd. You know, we all want to be inside it. But when it becomes we are the only ones follow the rules or you'll be cast out of the herd. It almost becomes a form of enmeshment with this newfound family or church. And your whole sense of belonging and identity becomes wrapped up in this high control, high structure environment. And we saw this with Hitler and the third right. We had these 20, 30 year old men with children themselves that are shooting these Jewish children and burning their bodies because they want to be part of this sense of belonging of the third right. And we killed six million Jews because of it. And so these predators are attracted to the high control groups because they know that people will follow blindly because they don't want to be rejected. And that's where we see people being exploited financially, children being molested. There's just no accountability. And when there's no accountability, there's liability. And I hear people say, well, we have deacons. Deacons are not accountability. They're oftentimes family members or good old boys or friends. And their loyalty is to the pastor, to their sense of belonging. And that's why having a denomination now denominations aren't perfect either. We can have a whole podcast on that. But but denominations, at least there is a place if the pastor is going crazy or if the pastor is off the rails, a member of the church can pick up the phone and call the denomination. And suits will show up and they can, you know, strip them of their credentials or they can disfellowship the church or they can call the authorities. Now, let me be clear. If a minor is in danger, you go straight to the authorities. You don't have to go to a denomination. But it's all about accountability. Yeah, I love that. And one of the things as we've done the podcast now for six years, we've had a host of guests before my time. But when John was solo to when me and John was on here to now me and Brett and our number two episode of all time is IFB modesty versus biblical modesty with Amy Miller. Amy is a great friend of the podcast. And she comes on, she came on and just talked through, discussed what that looked like. And it's number two, our number one episodes about the King James only model. And we spent six or eight different weeks talking through that. But it still blows my mind that that is the number two episode is modesty and the modesty culture. And so I want to sort of piggyback off of that and ask the question. Are there specific teachings or cultural expectations in your mind that, you know, could be wives not having a voice, standards, purity culture that you think that contribute to the confusion, the hurt, the abuse that happens in your own world or in the broader scheme of the whole thing? What would you think would be number one, number two? What are your thoughts on that? Well, I'll just enter into the modesty conversation because there's an entire chapter in my book where I talk about modesty. And I think one of the hardest things for me to overcome coming out of the holiness culture and trying to adjust suddenly to the real world was this sense of either it's a double sided ditch. Modesty in the holiness culture. Modesty in the holiness culture presents that it's all up to me or it's it's so, for example, there's pride and there's shame. There's just so much shame for a woman that her body is going to cause men to stumble. And you live with this shrouded shame that if I have a skirt that is showing my left ankle, I could derail a man's entire destiny and family because he lusts after me. Because the thinking is that verse. If a man looks at a woman and lusts after her, she's already done it. He's already committed adultery. And this like overemphasis on sexualization. So you go through life with this shrouded shame of I am a homewrecker. If my skirt is too tight, too short, too sheer, what have you. On the other side, these women from the holiness culture develop this sense of pride that I can bring a man to my knees with my sexual power. Everybody is lusting after me. And I think the truth is that not every man is powerless and taken out by the appearance of a woman and that men are powerful over their own purity and their own thoughts and their own actions. And so you're given this double sided whammy where you're both filled with shame and filled with pride. And the issue with the holiness culture, whether you're talking about, you know, modesty and what I learned about modesty is that it's just not about me at all. Modesty is just a sense of humility that God is in control and that I am here for God and that I am. My husband's purity is up to him and other men's purity is up to them. And I'm just walking with God in a spirit of humility for myself, no matter what I'm wearing. But the issue with the holiness culture is that it becomes the superiority culture. You know, we have this thought that because we have higher standards or we were wearing some in the in the Nazarene and in the Pentecostal, they cover their head, you know, and they're just have a sense of superiority that we're better than others because we have these standards. But really, when you cross that line, you start thinking we're the only ones that go to heaven. We're the only ones reading the true Bible. We don't associate with those who are lost or they might rub off on us. We are chosen. We're better than them. And again, that goes back to that Hitler thinking, that Aryan race thinking. And the difference between, you know, we have all these churches where they have this exciting, contagious culture. That's OK to have exciting culture and be proud of your church. You know, Walt Disney and Hitler were right around the same time. Both of them created humongous cultures that are legendary and go down in history. Disney created this family vacation happiest place on Earth. Hitler created family gas chambers in the most superior place on Earth. So that's the difference. You can be proud. You can be excited. You can have standards. You can have convictions. A lot of times our convictions are situational. You know, if you're in the Middle East, you're going to cover your face. That's just the Middle Eastern culture. You've been an addict your entire life. You're not going to want to be around alcohol. You're going to be happy that you're in a in a situation where alcohol is wrong. A lot of times we just go to this place of superiority and say, I'm better than you. So I don't have a problem with the holiness culture. I have a problem with the superiority culture and the narcissistic thinking that it perpetuates. Yeah, the not having any accountability. It's such a difficult thing. And it's so easy to be in that, right? It's so easy to be as a pastor, not you're in charge of everything. You're the, in essence, I told someone just the other day, I'm basically the CEO of the church. Like I'm, I'm making all the financial, I'm leading, I'm vision casting, I'm doing everything. I don't have to submit myself in that sense. It's wisdom that submits yourself and put yourself in that accountability of good counsel. But you don't have to, like you can run the church and do these things without any accountability. And that wisdom steps in and there are times where it's difficult because you know, I probably, if I ask the question and I do it once or twice a year, what am I doing right, wrong? Have you heard anything? There are some things that I know I've probably done some wrong or said something to somebody and it's going to get back to me and they're going to bring it up. And I'm, I'm on purpose submitting myself to make sure, you know, that we have that open line of communication. And there's no organization or person that's going to be perfect, but when you look at systemic repeated patterns of abuse and the silencing of the victim's voice, you know, that there is an issue with this specific group of people. When hundreds and thousands of abuse cases are coming forward, we're not talking about the disagreement of the church pew colors here. We're not talking about a lazy staff member that you fired. We're talking about the systemic abuse and it has to be addressed and spoken out about. So let's go into the subject of like our identity and healing and trying to heal from this. You know, you, you, you talk about identity being saved by wounds. How does someone move from being defined by what happened to them to being anchored in something stronger? You say on page 38, the cannot heal in the same environment that made you sick. What would you say? Yes. So like we talked about before, when a victim is stuck in that fight or flight, when they are in trauma, it's impossible to heal. So the first thing you have to do is you have to get to a safe place. You know, whether that means leaving the abuser or getting a safe friend on board, getting a safe person that you can tell your story to. And here's where I'm going to get a little nerdy on you guys. There's something called neuroplasticity in the brain. Okay. So when your limbic system is going crazy and your nervous system is in fight or flight, it will stay that way until your trauma is processed. That's why we see people come out of trauma and, and like build these giant businesses and like have this hypervigilance and they're going a million miles an hour. A lot of times out of the performance culture, you see people just flip their pain right over into something else. And, and it has to be addressed. So the best way to begin healing from trauma is to tell your story to a safe person, an empathetic listener. So you guys are doing that for me right now. You're helping my, my brain heal by listening to my story. And it's actually a neurological thing. So your amygdala, which is this little almond shaped thing in the middle of your brain, it is the control center for your fight or flight. Right. So after trauma, the amygdala can almost be like hypersensitive and stay in that state. It's like, if you were to burn toast, the amygdala is the fire alarm. There's smoke coming up. So the amygdala is like, there's a fire, there's a fire. Well, no, we're just burning the toast, but the amygdala stays stuck in this just loop of trauma. And the trauma feels present, like it's happening now, not like it happened. So when you tell your story to an empathetic, active listener with good eye contact, your limbic system, your fight or flight starts to register. I'm talking about something that happened, but it's not happening now. And that's called co-regulation. And that's when that prefrontal cortex, like I told you, starts to come back online. You start to organize memories, think clearly, regulate your emotions, and you can start to explain what happened coherently. That shame starts to lose its power. It comes, the story comes out of secret isolation, secrecy and isolation. So a safe person responds with belief and compassion. There's no judgment. They are emotionally present. And your brain literally begins to rewire itself and to heal. And here's what's super, super cool. Have you guys ever met somebody and within 30 seconds you're like, I don't trust this person. There's just something about them I don't like or I don't trust. Or have you ever seen something out of the corner of your eye and it made you jump, you know? Okay, your amygdala is attached to your thalamus, which is attached to your optic nerve, which is attached to your retina. So literally, you are able to look into somebody's eyes that is safe and empathetic. And it tells your brain that you are okay and it rewires your brain. So the number one thing you can do to begin healing from trauma is tell your story to a safe person. And neuroplasticity begins to occur. Brett, before you ask the next one, I want to interject just one thing. So we just finished a series and I have random pastors in other counties that have stopped me and said, thank you for doing this series. We did a series on Jim Jones. And when we were walking through that, one of the things that came up was Jim Jones' ability to even contort his face or empathize with people that were in front of him. Like if someone was going through pain, he would physically start looking like he was in pain to associate that with them. He created a false sense of safety. Exactly. That's what people are looking for. Yeah. To build that trust. Yes. To allow their mind to be able to do that. So I thought when you said all that in your psycho jumble that I don't even understand the words that you were saying, it reminded me of that situation that people would often, survivors have said. But I felt like the pain I was going through, he was going through it in that same moment because how he was able to adjust his body. And in my sort of thirst for healing and knowledge, I went on a huge study of cults and cult leaders and how they were able to just have this power over people. I even visited the bombing site of David Koresh in Waco, Texas, had an incredible experience. It's in my book if you want to read it. But yeah, it's fascinating how these cult leaders create a sense of belonging and safety that's irresistible to the point where these men will even give them their daughters and wives. It's a very powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So we talked, you talked about fight or flight, getting out of that environment, finding somebody safe to tell your story to. And the next question, a follow up question that is, how do we go from that to being anchored in something stronger? And what does that look like in everyday life? Yeah. You're not going to like the answer. Everybody asks, how do I heal? And my answer is you have to expose the wound. You know, if you come to a doctor and you're bleeding out under your shirt and you never lift the shirt and show the doctor the wound, how is he going to help you heal it? So often we hide our weaknesses. We hide our traumas, the secret things. And God says, in my, in your weakness, he is made strong. So we need to expose our weakness, expose the wounds so that God can turn it into a scar. And we have to be brave enough to begin talking about our pain. We have to normalize going toward the pain. And I just did a women's conference called transform conference about we did Cinderella. And I, I, it wasn't a popular message. I said, we all want our glass slipper moment. We want the fairy godmother to show up and wave her wand and heal us. And we live happily ever after and get everything we want. But we don't want to live in the ashes. Cinderella. She was called cinder Ella because she lived in the ashes and she was, she lost her parents. She was forced to serve her stepsisters and her evil stepmother, you know, and it, that was where her character was formed. Your character and your strength is being formed in the ashes of your trauma. And so often we try to ignore it or bury it. But if you don't dig up the past, it's not going to stay buried. It's like those alligators we talked about. It's lurking down there and there's going to be bubbles coming up. So therapy isn't about opening wounds for the sake of suffering or the victim mentality. It's about finally allowing your brain and your body to finish that story that was interrupted by fear. And as Christians, we have the ability to let God help us write the end of the story. And, and those alligators can, can move on. So grieving what's trapped energy in your nervous system, grieving it, staring at the grief is how you let it go. And Jesus showed us that it's okay to grieve in the garden. He grieved before the cross. He said, man, I want my friends to stay with me. I'm sweating blood. I have anxiety. Lord, take this cup from me. He even angrily said, father, why have you forsaken me? Jesus went through all the clinical stages of grief, which I talk about in my book. Grief is good. And I think so often we try to just avoid those bad feelings. But when we go toward the wound, go toward the grief, that's when healing starts. Yeah, that's great. Our last question, and we'll let you talk on this as long as you want, or give any thoughts or final closing things is for someone who's listening today, who just feels stuck. I'm, I'm, I'm stuck in an abusive relationship, right? You, when you have that two-year-old and two-week-old, there's no way out. I can heal this person that's in front of me. I can help him. If I leave, he's going to spiral even into more. So I'm the only anchor that he's got, right? All of a sudden we feel like we're the ones that can fix it. And if I leave, then I'll be the one that's blamed for him to go even further. Yes, I had all those thoughts. Yeah, right. That's what we think. That's what we go through. Or going through the painful experiences. What would be the truth or the thing that you would give them? The encouraging word that you can give them as they're in that moment. The one thing that you would say to that person, you, back, I don't know how many ever years that was 10 years ago or so. What would be the one thing that you would say to that person if you could go back in time? That's a great question. If you are stuck in domestic violence, you are stuck in emotional abuse. You are stuck in a church where your brother-in-law is the pastor and your mom and dad have casserole dinner every Sunday. And you've realized this is not healthy. Whatever it is and anything in between. I want you to know that if you don't like your life, you are allowed to change it. And you can't change the facts of your story. You can't change the abuse you've been through. You cannot change the wound. But you can change what happens next. And healing is not pretending it's not happening or pretending it didn't happen. It's refusing to allow trauma to control the narrative. You are in control of your life. Unless you are literally bound and gagged in a prison cell, you have the power to walk out. And you will be surprised how many people will believe you and support you. I talk about I've talked a lot about Germany. I'm just so fascinated with with the Holocaust and the victims of how they went through so much pain and suffering. And I studied the little patch of mountains between Germany and Switzerland. And a lot of times the border control there was there was compassionate Germans that would help the Jews get across the border to Switzerland to safety. But in my book, I talk about the whole passage and how there is a place in between your abusive situation and safety and freedom that is very, very lonely. And it's very difficult to go through. Those Jews had to go through a brutal wilderness. It was cold. There was snow. They were starving. There was predators. There was long, long miles to journey across the border to Switzerland. But once they got there, they were greeted with love and and healing and support and food and and a warm fire. But oftentimes people are not willing to cross that lonely, isolating wilderness to freedom or they quit and turn back and say, you know, at least my high control environment felt like family felt like belonging. So I just want you to know that there is going to be a period of loneliness and struggle and difficulty. But you can do it. And there are people on the other side waiting to believe you, waiting to support you. And when you let God help you rewrite the story, it doesn't just end in healing. It ends in redemption. And when Jesus is lifted up, he draws all other people to him. So when you lift up your story of pain, you lift up your story of trauma, you say, I was then Jesus. Now I fill in the blanks. That's as easy as it is to tell your story. Then God is going to draw other victims to him. And they're going to realize that God is not the one inflicting the pain. But God is the one who wants to help you rewrite the story. And that's what I learned. Great. Any thoughts from you? No, this is great. I've had a wonderful time talking to you about your book. So I can't wait to read it. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for having me. It was just a pleasure to be here today. Yeah. Thank you, Bridget, for coming on. It's great to talk through that. And if you're one out there that's struggling or have struggled with any of these things we've talked about, feel free to reach out to us. I know all of our social medias are out there. My phone number is out there in like 17 different places. So you're more than willing to reach out to me, call me, message us. And we would love to talk through and hear your story and find out how we can help you. Thank you again, Bridget, for coming on. We hope this is a blessing to our listeners. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. That has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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