195. Freedom from Emotional and Spiritual Manipulation

the courtroom was packed every bench in the gallery was full neighbors co-workers family members all waiting to see justice unfold a quiet tension hung in the air thick as humidity before a storm at the front under the great seal of the state a judge sat like a stone senatum he had seen hundreds of cases but he even looked uneasy about this one the defendant a woman in her mid-30s named rebecca hell sat at a table beside her attorney she was neat calm almost fragile looking her hair tucked perfectly behind one ear her face pale but composed her hands folded tightly under the table knuckles white on the other side of the courtroom sat the plaintiff michael adams our former business partner shoulder stiff jaw clenched iris eyes tired between them years of partnership trust friendship and betrayal the case was simple on paper complicated in reality rebecca was accused of defrauding the company that they had built together moving money falsifying reports and convincing others to cover for her but beneath the legal language was a darker thread she hadn't stolen with force or threat she had stolen with charm persuasion and emotional pressure with one simple force behind it all manipulation michael and rebecca had started their company 10 years earlier atoms and hail consulting they were good what they did marketing business strategy client relations michael handled the operations and the finance and rebecca she was the visionary the rainmaker you could say she was the face of the company she could walk into a boardroom and walk out with a contract twice the size of anyone else's she could make you feel like you were the most valuable person in the room michael would later say like you were seen valued and respected that was her gift and her weapon it began innocently enough a missing receipt here a payment that didn't quite add up a few thousand unaccounted for when michael brought it up she smiled and said oh mike you're such a good numbers guy you're you're so good at this stuff honestly i could never keep track of it like you do i must have just filed it wrong he believed her why wouldn't he they were friends partners she made him feel like the protector the steady one the reliable rock that she needed but over time the gaps grew and so did her explanations when a client questioned a late invoice she'd say you know how demanding michael can be he insists everything that go through three layers of approval i'll smooth it out for you when employee questioned a bonus discrepancy she laughed and said michael's just under pressure right now i'll handle him and piece by piece she shaped the perception of those around her michael the control freak the worrier and the killjoy she was the patient understanding one who held it all together she wasn't stealing yet but she was sculpting the outline of what was going to happen she was beginning to soften everyone's defenses with sympathy and that's how manipulation works it rarely storms in and and seeps in it doesn't demand it sort of suggests it doesn't accuse it just wonders one friday afternoon michael stumbled across a series of payments to a small unknown vendor rh marketing solutions took a few clicks to realize that rh stood for rebecca hell and she'd been quietly funneling money through a shell company that she owned paying herself consulting fees on top of her salary and bonuses when he confronted her she didn't flinch she looked hurt michael she said softly i can't believe you'd think that of me after everything we've built you know how hard i've worked how many nights i've stayed up making sure your clients were happy while you were home with your family he felt the sting immediately the guilt the shame the suggestion that he was the ungrateful one the cold one she didn't deny it she made him feel cruel and even asking that's sort of the genius of manipulation it it shifts all the spotlight instead of asking whether something was wrong it makes you ask whether you were wrong to even ask to begin with michael backed down for a while but the truth didn't stay buried forever the client eventually called him directly asking about a suspicious retainer when he investigated he found a pattern tens of thousands of dollars misallocated over several years that was when he realized what he was up against it was not just deceit it was control through emotional leverage he went to the board he went through the authorities and now he sits in a courtroom finally telling his side of the story the prosecutor's case was airtight they had bank statements emails memos every piece of evidence pointing in one direction yet as the trial unfolded something unexpected began to happen rebecca didn't argue facts she began to argue feelings when she took the stand she didn't speak like a thief she spoke like a martyr her voice trembled as she began to describe her struggles long hours the pressures of keeping the company alive the emotional toil of working with someone so demanding and personistic as michael she even said i guess i made mistakes but it was only because i was trying to keep him from losing everything gas fill the courtroom the audience leaned forward you could feel the doubt creeping in maybe she wasn't the villain maybe she was just been misunderstood and that's the power of manipulation i can twist the knife and make you think think the hand that's turning it during cross examination the prosecutors pressed her miss how did you create rh marketing solutions yes did you authorize payments to the company from atoms and hell consulting yes and did you disclose that you were the owner of that company to your partner she hesitated and then smiled faintly i didn't think that mattered i wasn't hiding it i just assumed he knew we were so close even in confession she framed deceit as innocence every statement carried a subtle emotional undertone i'm not bad i misunderstood you're not wrong you were heartless and when the verdict finally came guilty on multiple charges of fraud and misrepresentation rebecca cried not out of remorse but outrage you all believed him over me she whispered shaking her hand and everything after everything i've done for everyone in this room even the judge sighed before sentencing miss hell he said you didn't just manipulate finances you manipulated people you use the trust as a weapon and that in some ways is the deepest kind of theft after the trial michael didn't celebrate he sat in the courtroom long after everyone had left victory didn't feel like freedom it felt like grief he had won yes but the cost was high friendships lost a business shattered reputations bruised he'd spent years doubting his instincts questioning his sanity and apologizing for things he had never done wrong you see dear friend that is the aftermath of manipulation it doesn't just break systems it breaks spirits in the months following that michael rebuilt what he could but something had changed he noticed manipulation everywhere now not always in the courtroom but in conversations in relationships and church committees and family dinners that he was attending the subtle art of emotional control the unspoken pressure to conform to please or to yield to whatever someone else is thinking he began to see the manipulation isn't always criminal sometimes it's cultural sometimes it wears a smile and says i'm just trying to help sometimes it begins to even quote scripture as we'll look at today and begins to hide behind even tears but whether in a courtroom or a kitchen the pattern is the same twist emotion to cloud truth use guilt to gain control appear as a victim and eventually you can avoid responsibility for a time months later a journalist interviewed michael about the case and asked what was the biggest lesson you learned she asked he paused with a statement he said truth doesn't always shout sometimes it whispers and you have to stop listening to guilt long enough to hear it she tilted her head sort of in confusion and asked another question did do you think rebecca will ever understand what she did he smiled sadly manipulators rarely do they believe their story is so deeply that it feels like truth to them they are that that's why they're so convincing they've manipulated themselves first before anything else you see what make rebecca's manipulation so powerful wasn't her intelligence or charm it it was the way that she weaponized people's hearts she turned compassion into compliance trust into control and kindness into currency and if you and i were honest with each other we've all may have been on one side of that equation or maybe even both sides of that equation the story of rebecca and michael isn't just a courtroom drama at times it's a mirror because manipulation isn't limited to crooks and con artists it's it's it's the quiet parent who controls through guilt it's the friend who plays the victim to avoid confrontation it's even the pastor who uses fear instead of faith to keep people in line spouse who holds affection until they get their way and in the end the trial of manipulation isn't fault in a courtroom it's fault in the heart every day we stand in the courtroom where we choose between influence and integrity between emotion and truth between control and trust the judge in that moment isn't wearing a robe but it's our conscience illuminated by god's word and that's where the gospel cuts through the fog you see jesus never manipulated anyone he didn't coerce he didn't want to try to convince someone to believe he didn't twist emotions he never guilted people into obedience jesus came and he spoke truth and he invited surrender he invited people to a better way he appealed not out of fear but oh not not to fear or to shame but to the conscience and to the heart so maybe the question isn't who's manipulating me but where am i tempted to manipulate others you see because freedom doesn't come from controlling people it comes from trusting god enough in your life to let go and see what god's plan is for you man that was a great cold open i think you should do that professionally james i think you do a you do an excellent job at it uh but welcome back to the for freedom podcast it's uh that time of year it's fall i hope you got your pumpkin spice lattes and got your pumpkin spice uh potpourri going on in your house because it is that time it's uh thanksgiving time and we've got the big turkey holiday coming up and uh man i'm looking forward to having my turkey and my deviled eggs and my mac and cheese it's one day a year i can load up on the carbs and uh very thankful for carbohydrates and protein on thanksgiving day uh but man i'm just excited to be in the ministry i'm excited to be on the for freedom podcast with dr reverend james safer brother tell us how are things going in north carolina man we're cold we uh we had a little cold snap these last couple of days um monday and tuesday or sunday and monday one of those days it got down like 30 29 degrees um i was loving it it was great uh we had a wonderful time at our convention we had 1600 people there um it was the largest convention that north carolina has had in 20 plus years um and so that was encouraging to have a lot of people around so we just got back from that had some late nights hanging out with guys getting to connect a little bit my voice is a little strangly right now from that and with the weather changing uh but yeah it is it is great brett the other day i went by sam's club and they had a ginormous i mean bigger than my desk it looked like pumpkin pie so we bought it for our uh meeting that we had at the church it was like five bucks for this massive pumpkin pie i don't know how many compliments i got from how great that pumpkin pie was like my kids were taking platefuls of pumpkin pie home uh because of how great it was and it was like five bucks it was so cheap um so i am very much excited about thanksgiving in just a couple of weeks the day where we can um in in indulge ourselves in gluttony and thank the lord for the food that he's given us uh and sin all at the same time by eating too much food it is a wonderful holiday uh deviled eggs all the stuff in the turkey the deep fried turkey the hams uh the hanging outside with the guys and smoking cigars while the girls are inside cooking it's it's a wonderful wonderful experience i'll tell you it's something that my wife makes that i absolutely just love she makes pumpkin chocolate chip muffins and they're moist and good and uh you know we were gonna we we bought some uh to bring to a church function then we ran out of time to make them uh so i'm gonna make a suggestion that we make those for our small group next week uh but man you get one of those you you you zap it warm you put some butter on the inside man make you want to slap your mammy and so uh i'll tell you what last night we got a little treat i know you were tuckered out uh but we got a little treat with the northern lights now listen i've seen since i lived here uh in carthage i've seen northern lights a couple of times through my phone but last night was the first time i ever seen it with my naked eye i mean it was very you could see uh you know the sky was purple the horizon was green you could see it without now the phone made it where you could see it a lot better uh but it was the first time i could ever see it with the naked eye it was awesome but you're not gonna miss out uh because tonight uh i know this won't do any good for our listeners but uh for tonight uh when we're reporting this uh it's gonna be even bigger tonight so you're gonna have an opportunity uh to see the northern lights tonight yeah brett the other day speak i will not get talking about food it's hard for me to stop talking about food and you said something that your wife had made uh those pumpkin chocolate chip muffins which sound delightful i mean i just i'm excited right now thinking about that but i saw something the other day i'm gonna make it this year let me know your thoughts on this brett it is a pecan pie cobbler yeah yeah interesting pecan pie filling the way you would make pecan pie but instead of putting it into a filling dish you do like a almost like a lasagna layers like filling pie crust filling pie crust filling pie like you layer it like a lasagna and then you bake that thing and it puffs all up you get the pie but you get the pumpkin pie or the pecan pie i'm a pecan pie like enthusiast so so i mean i love the i saved it immediately i sent it to my wife immediately because i couldn't not have that and i told her i said i am making this at thanksgiving because i'm going to indulge myself and if it's not good i don't know what i'm going to do because it looked fantastic listen that sounds fantastic listen pecan pie is especially the filling it's next level yes it is like if i'm on a diet and i can only have one thing of multiple desserts i'm getting a piece of pecan pie you know they got that as you were talking about that that cobbler you know they got that starbucks uh little bear that little class starbucks cup that sold out recently i had a picture of that cup in it and people like it because it's clear you can see through it that cup filled with pecan pecan pie filling and you're just sitting there slurping on it that would be so great yeah i'm right there with you i love pecan pie i love it well we are in our holiday season brett and uh just a couple of things that are coming up we'll start out if you haven't went out and checked out our cigar company um i've made some great connections over the last couple of weeks uh just talking to people through that and uh go by and check out we're running specials just this past week you may have not seen it but we ran a 25 off special for one day on november 11th um and there'll be some other specials that'll be dropping through the 1689 website um and all that applies to our products as well um and so you could have got some great deals there um go by and check out our sampler pack our individual pack or our experience box we've got just a couple of those left um those are great ways to support the podcast and also support other ministries that we're helping out that we're a part of and uh so hopefully you'll jump on board with that uh brett january is right around the corner what's coming up man man we are going back to the holy land israel we've been talking about this for so long i'm excited that it's finally here it's almost here the window to go is shortening um and listen our listeners they know about it they want to go they know they can sign up for it um man i just can't wait to go back i can't wait to see some of these places that we've seen before you know the fighting's over and now it's time to get back to business as usual and i'm excited for some of the places we're going that we didn't go last time um church of the flagellation um i think we're going to uh where david killed goliath a couple other places um things like that and so i'm excited uh to get to go back to israel go with the holy be with the holy land and we're going to get to go back with our buddy marcus merit um that's when we first met marcus over in israel i mean he has been a friend to us he's been a friend of the for freedom podcast we've had on several times and uh he is he is he is they call him the doc over there at luther rice and uh so i'm excited to go back uh to the holy land with him you try to explain when you go and i know this episode intro we're talking all about food but i have just tried to explain the buffets at this these hotels how long they are and how a plethora is and you wouldn't think that a breakfast buffet that doesn't have any pork on it would be very long but you would be wrong the stuff that they put on these buffets and they're they're great they're awesome so you you i mean you stay in five-star hotels getting first class tour buses they take you to real biblical sites that bring the bible to life um it's just awesome that we get to go back and i can't wait yeah brett my life is made around food i love food i love gathering and eating uh so if if i'm around somewhere we're going to be eating and it's going to be good uh hey you you read the gospel of luke all jesus did was eat and talk about food that's right brian edwards big shout out here to brian i know we mentioned different people if i'm somewhere that i don't really know where i'm at uh and what's good around i promise you i can text brian edwards he may not respond that day it may be the next week or the next month uh but brian's gonna text back and he's gonna tell me all the crazy great hole-in-the-wall restaurants that are in that place with him traveling with his dad he went to all these little places and he just he just knows them the other day we last year we met up for breakfast or somewhere and and i said hey where do you want to go and he said meet me here it's a great place i'd never heard of it before and so we met and had breakfast and it was one of the best uh breakfast experiences i ever had and the man just knows food um so if i'm gonna be hanging out with people it's gonna be with food uh and it's gonna be a great time uh last up that we've got coming up we've got our um what were the two things uh june we've got our convention there in orlando if you're gonna be there or be in the area definitely hang this hook us up message us we'll have a house we've already got some people that said they're gonna come over and hang out a couple of nights it'd be a great time for you to connect with us ask some questions and then brett we just had an opportunity open up for us it's actually going to work out where we can both go down in july our churches are going to go down to nicaragua um and uh we're going to do a joint trip again but we've been asked to go down and do a spiritual legalism and abuse pastoral conference and so we're going to be speaking five or so sessions on what that is how to live in grace and live from spiritual legalism and abuse and just train about 100 pastors on what this looks like give them some resources some books a brand new bible or call for reference study bible um an awesome opportunity has opened up with lee united christian missions and a partnership they have with provision financial ministries um where they've got some grant money they're going to spend for us to help train these pastors and so i am so excited about that i've been praying and thinking on over some notes and some topics that we've got uh that we've been working through and uh so i'm excited about that and how the lord's just opening some doors for us to be able to do some things uh through the ministry of the podcast and uh we we are excited for what is going on i mean have the opportunity uh to train over 100 national pastors from all over the country um it's just a great opportunity that the lord has given us and we want to be good stewards of it and we're looking forward uh looking forward to it and i'm excited to go back down and i was excited to go uh just to go down there and help out but to have this opportunity uh to train these pastors it's going to be great we're at our church we're going to have an interest meeting uh i think the first sunday in december uh for the nicaraguan mission trip and get our get our money raised get our funds together but yeah i'm excited about it man it's going to be great absolutely one last thing before we jump into our episode we have been given a grant as well uh for the podcast and the ministry to distribute our newest book that came out from brokenness to freedom um we've got about 200 copies that are going to be purchased with this grant money and we're going to be giving them out for free so if you're a listener and you haven't went and bought a book or you have a church or a counseling ministry or an association of churches that would benefit from having a couple or 10 or 15 copies of these book of this book if you would reach out to me direct message me uh we'll be placing that order for those books here real soon and uh they'll be in your hands for free um for by by the uh the grant that we most recently received um and so we just want to be blessed and want to help out uh so if you would be interested in that please reach out to me and we can provide you with the way you can get those books and the way you can be a blessing to ministries or organizations or maybe you've got a pastor that you want to just bless and you want to give this to reach out to me i can get it to you um and so we've already given away about 70 of those 200 for free and so we've got about 130 left and so if you're interested in that please please let me know so i can get that for you for freedom you set me free not for chains not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released welcome to the for freedom podcast this podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday christians with everyday issues i ain't saved by dress codes not by what i eat i'm covered in the righteousness washed from head to feet no tally of tradition no man-made code blood bought my freedom now i ride that road they clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise but my praise still ascends past the legalist cries christ plus nothing that's the real math so miss me with your fence laws and your extra path he sat with sinners i'm sitting with saints sipping grace from the bottle no room for fakes i light one for liberty toast to the king every ash a sermon death has lost its sting for freedom you set me free not for chains not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released for freedom you set me free not for chains not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. Time to tackle our subject today. And, you know, what we're talking about today, it's uncomfortable, but it's important. As you pointed out in the cold open, the subject of today is manipulation. And if there's anybody that, you know, has been through legalistic background, one thing they know is manipulation. Yeah, absolutely. Brett, we have, we've talked about this before on the podcast. It's been a hundred so episodes ago. So it's been a long time ago since we actually addressed the topic of spiritual manipulation, emotional manipulation. And so it was on my mind a couple of days ago. I sent you a text and when I got back from the convention, I just, I was talking to some guys while I was at the convention and there was just some manipulation that kept coming up in the conversation. And so I really felt pressed. Hey, let's just put a pause on where we're at. Talk about this idea of spiritual and emotional manipulation and what that looks like. Because one of the tricky things about manipulation is it can often come from people we love and we respect. You know, it's not always loud or it's not even obvious. It's often emotional and even spiritual at times. And so having to figure that out and having to recognize that, having the tools to recognize that is an important thing to do. Right. And so, you know, we need to ask the question, what is manipulation? So at the top, let's define it. You know, Webster Dictionary says that manipulation is to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The biblical angle of this is manipulation is used in unbiblical means to control or influence others. I believe it was last year, Brett, that the word of the year was love bombing or something along those lines. Or it was just this bombing someone with love to cover up what was going on. And that's really what manipulation can be in a lot of areas. One of the words that I recently learned was gaslighting. Yeah. Gaslighting. Yeah. For a long time, I didn't, you know, I didn't know what gaslighting was. But, man, especially in the church, I've been gaslit. Like one of my pastors just gaslit the fire out of me. And once you see it and you recognize it and you have the tools equipped to deal with it, it helps. But, yeah, you know, it's just not getting your way. It's using guilt, fear, emotion to push someone to react instead of respond biblically. And that's what we're here to address. Yeah. Another way to put that would be, Brett, is it's about controlling the outcomes through emotion instead of through conviction. And how we can do this is we sometimes we do this not even thinking about it. We already have the end goal in mind. And so we have to manipulate the situation to get what our end goal is. That's manipulation. We're manipulating it to get the outcome that we're wanting. And it can be for a good purpose. Some manipulation is for a good purpose, right? You want your kid to brush their teeth in the morning so they don't have stinky breath and get made fun of at school. And so you sometimes manipulate, coerce, you know, tell them, convince them to do the things they need to do because of a good outcome. And so there are some things that you can do in a good manner. And so we want to address that in the proper perspective of life. Right. Lou Prelo points out that this can show up through things like intimidation, coercing someone by making them feel guilty or threatened if they don't comply. And how often, you know, do we see this? You know, you were just talking about, you know, sometimes manipulation can be a good thing in certain contexts, like your kid or whatnot. It's funny. I was studying Second Samuel. No, no. First Kings today. And it was how Bathsheba and Nathan were kind of manipulating David to, you know, you know, to get Solomon on the throne. And so, you know, so things like that. But, you know, making somebody I've been made feel guilty before. I've been threatened before. So these are all parts of manipulation that we're trying to address. Yeah. And Lou Pirelli's book on manipulation, I've got it here on my desk. I will tag that. Great little book. Lou Pirelli wouldn't be with Lord. Just a couple of years ago, he passed away. But he put out just a little mini book here, 25, 30 pages on how do we go through manipulation? How does manipulation look at our life? How does Jesus respond to manipulation? And we're going to use some of these things today as we talk through this. But a great book if you've ever been in that. It's a great little resource for you. But George Simon, who also wrote a book, he wrote a book called In the Sheep's Clothing, put it like this. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when, and how hard. And if you've ever been manipulated or ever been coerced to do something, whether that be emotionally, spiritually, or even physically, you know this better than others because they'll say something and you just like your body freezes. You don't know how to respond. You don't know what to do. You go into that fight mode or just you begin to freeze. And they now have control over you. And now they're going to push into what they believe and what they want you to do. And you feel like you don't have control over anything. You know, it's scary because it's true. You know, sometimes manipulators, they use our compassion against us. They act helpless. They act hurt or wounded when what's really driving them is control. And I can tell you that, you know, I've kind of always been a pastor, but I experienced this some whenever I was, you know, over the old chain shop. And I had some people that worked under me try to manipulate, use the fact that I was a pastor and play on the fact that I went to church and I'm a pastor. And, you know, I'm trying to punish them. I'm trying to, you know, maybe fire them in some cases because they weren't doing their job. And they're just pleading with me. Oh, don't don't don't write me up. Don't do this. I'm, you know, I'm trying to feed my family, whatnot. And just trying to manipulate just like this. We were, we talked about their helpless, hurt, wounded. And what's really, you know, what they're really trying to do is just control you. Yeah. And it's good to know those things. James four, one through three. This is the half brother of Jesus here in James. Um, he, let me read it for you. And then I'll sort of give it with our notes. It says, where do wars and fighting among you come from? Do they not come from your own lust that warn your body? You lust and you do not have, so you kill, you desire to have and cannot obtain. Do you fight in war yet? You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and you do not receive because you ask amiss that you may spend it on your passions. This gives us the spiritual reason behind manipulation, right? Our desires are out of order. And when our desires are out of whack, we begin to want things that are not good for us. And when someone resorts to manipulation, it's because they either want something that's wrong or they're wanting something too much. And our desires that the Bible, the Puritan said like this, we have in rate desires. We have desires that have been changed from what God has designed us to have. And so our desires can turn into manipulation because I want something. I'm afraid you're going to take it away from me. I feel threatened. And so I'm going to manipulate or I'm going to coerce you into getting what I think I need because I'm afraid it's going to get taken away or I may never get it. And so I'm going to manipulate the situation to get whatever it is that I want. And if we look at one model to try to understand how to deal with manipulation and manipulators, we need to look no further than Jesus because he is the perfect model when it comes to this thing, when it comes to this stuff. Because listen, Jesus, everybody that everybody tried to manipulate Jesus, all the Pharisees and the Sadducees, they're all trying to be manipulative with him. And he was just a master at how to handle people trying to manipulate him. He never violated truth to keep the peace. And that's another thing we can admire about it. That's good. That's really good, Brett. You know, he never allowed people to leave a conversation thinking they had outsmarted him or even justified themselves. My mind immediately right now goes to the thought of Jesus when he was coming to the temple grounds and the Pharisees came to him and they asked him about John the Baptist. Or I'm sorry, they asked him a question and he responded, if you can answer my question correctly, then I'll do what you want me to do. And he asked them about John the Baptist. And it says that the Pharisees reasoned within themselves and said, if we affirm what he's saying about John the Baptist, then the crowd's going to kill us. And if we deny, I don't know if I get it wrong, if we deny that John the Baptist was the prophet, then, you know, he was one of us. And so that he put them in this pickle to where he allowed them to understand what it is. And, you know, this is what Jesus did. He did not allow the conversation to be outsmarted or people to be able to justify what they're saying or what they're doing. Right. And, you know, that brings us to another passage of Scripture. And that's Proverbs 26, 4 and 5, which a lot of people see this as actually a contradiction in the word of God. You're like, how can these two things be true at the same time? And let me read you the verses. This is Proverbs 26, verse 4 and 5. Verse 4 says, don't answer a fool according to his foolishness or you will be like him. So don't answer a fool. But then you go to the next verse, verse 5, it says, answer a fool according to his foolishness or he'll become wise in his own eyes. So, you know, you've got these two paradoxes here. You've got these two sides of the same coin. Do we answer a fool according to his folly or do we not? And the answer is sometimes you answer a fool and sometimes you don't. Jesus modeled perfect discernment in knowing which way, which approach to fit the moment. And, you know, sometimes, no, you're casting pearls to the swine when you answer a fool. But other times, if you let them go unanswered, they're going to mislead other people. They're going to lead other people down the wrong path. So you have to have discernment and wisdom as a Christian to know when to keep your mouth shut and when to say something. Yeah, discernment is a huge thing. Man, we oftentimes I will put my foot in my mouth. I will insert foot in mouth moment often. And man, having that discernment to know when to say what to say, why to say things is massive. And it's part of that's the Holy Spirit, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us and to go through those things. Prioli, he notes two key things with the way Jesus responds. And we're going to let Brett go through a couple of examples here of how Jesus responded. The two ways that he did it, the first thing is he appealed to their conscience. He reminded people of their biblical responsibility. Love the Lord your God, follow your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The rich young ruler comes to him and he says, I want to follow you. And he tells him, deny your cross, take up your cross daily and follow me. He's telling them of their biblical responsibility they have as people who are in this world. We're in this world, but not of this world. And Jesus reminded them of that and reminded us as we look back on the words of Jesus, this is our heart that we must get right as we go through these moments of we respond to manipulation. The second thing here is he appealed to the God's word, holding up truth as the standard, not emotion. Oftentimes, Brett, I am guilty of this. And one of the most common things in biblical counseling in my life over the last couple of years is I don't feel like doing that. I don't feel like they deserve my forgiveness. I don't feel like they deserve. But what happens is it goes into that emotion. And God is telling us that truth is the standard. Truth of the word of God, truth of what God has said and what he has declared as truth is the standard we live by. We don't live by our feelings or emotions. As hard as that is, because we're emotional creatures, we must live in the realm of truth because our emotions are going to lie to us. Our emotions are going to tell us that we need things too. I went yesterday and we had went to an all you could eat sushi restaurant. Brett, my emotion was telling me that I needed to eat more. And so I ate more because it was all you could eat. And I'm trying to eat more and more. And I got to the point where I, I didn't eat dinner last night. And then I had a heartburn because I ate so much food because emotionally I was telling myself I needed more. Truth of the matter is I didn't eat anymore. I ate too much. I paid the price later. But when you listen to your emotions, they're going to lead you out of whack. We've got to live in the foundation of God's word and the truth of God's word. Exactly. And, you know, just let's just think through some examples in the gospels. First, you have Martha in Luke chapter 10. You know, you've got these two sisters that Jesus is visiting and Mary's sitting with Jesus. And Martha's like, man, Jesus, tell her to get up and help me and kind of throwing it on Jesus. Like, Jesus, how come you're not helping me? How come you're not, you're not, you know, telling her to come help? I'm doing all this for y'all. I'm trying. And listen, Jesus, like, hold on a second, Martha. Hold on just a second. Think about what you're doing. She's doing the greater thing. You know, she's here. She's listening to me. And this is kind of what you need to be doing. You need to take a step back. And Martha's letting her emotions, like you said, you know, get in front of the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is there. And Jesus wasn't always going to be with them. This was a temporary thing. They wouldn't always have Jesus. So sitting there listening to Jesus was the place where they needed to be. Another example is Mary and Joseph when Jesus was 12 years old. And Jesus, you know, they couldn't find him for a couple of days. And so they go back to the city and they're looking for Jesus. And it turns out Jesus was in the temple the whole time. And they finally found Jesus. And they said to Jesus, Jesus, why did you treat us this way? And Jesus is like, know you not that I've been about my father's business? I mean, once again, you know, they got so wrapped up in their emotion that they didn't think about the fact, hey, this is the son of God. Where else is he going to be? He's going to be, you know, about his father's business. We've talked several times about the Pharisees and scribes constantly trying to trip up Jesus, laying traps for Jesus. And Jesus would just shut them up each time. And I think this is an example of when to answer somebody, when to answer a fool according to his folly. Jesus answered the Pharisees because these were leaders. This was public. These were public discourses. And if Jesus would have just walked away from these instances, these Pharisees would have led people astray. And that's not what Jesus is there to do. So Jesus is, you know, these Pharisees and scribes are constantly trying to twist truth to trap him. And then, of course, you've got Mrs. Zebedee trying to get, you know, her sons to sit at the right hand and left hand of Jesus. You've got a mom lobbying for her son's promotion and trying to get the sons to ask Jesus certain questions and use Jesus's words against him to say that they get to be, you know, greatest in the kingdom. And Jesus hit a map with, look, you know, the greatest on earth is least in the kingdom. If you want to, you know, if you want to lead, if you want to be great, then you've got to serve somebody. So he flipped their expectations. He didn't let them set the narrative. And, you know, like I said, this is just a master class of how to deal with manipulation. You just go through the life of Christ. So this is it wasn't just Pharisees and Sadducees and scribes trying to trap Jesus. These were his followers. These were his own disciples trying to trap Jesus in his words and manipulate him to get what they wanted, because at the end of the day, we're humans and we're selfish creatures. Yeah, I love that illustration of Martha and Mary, because when Jesus responds, we get this beautiful picture of what it truly looks like. And you said it. He redirected them to God's truth and to their own heart motives. He looked at Martha and he said, Martha, Martha, why are you worried and bothered about so many things? He puts this back on her and he says, look at your own conscience. Look at where you're at and look at how you have a better responsibility. And then he brings us back around and he said, there's only one thing that is necessary. And Mary has chosen the good part, which shall never be taken away from her. And he gives us back to God's truth and God's principle of how we can live a perfect life, how we can live a life for God, how we can have our actions and truths go into that way. And so in all these cases, Jesus responds calmly. He redirects them to God's truth in their own heart and says, hey, let's examine where you're at. Let's examine what you're doing and how you're going through this in your own life. Amen. That's good stuff. You know, how do we detect manipulation? We have to get our feelers out. We got to see it coming. The one thing that manipulators love to do is accuse others of sin that they didn't commit. And so that's one thing we got to think about. That's exactly right. It's one person said it like this. It's emotional blackmail. Shaming someone into compliance. You know, a lot of times when you would join a sorority, they would make you do crazy things and they would video or they would take pictures of it. A lot of cults, if you've ever read and looked at any of that, they would have what they would call blackmail that they would actually have to if you ever left that or turned them in, they would have something against you. A writing of a letter, something that you've went through that you could, they can manipulate you into keeping you into submission. This is the same way when we have friends, sometimes the shaming, you know, don't tell mom and dad this because, you know, I don't want to get in trouble. But if you do tell mom and dad, I'll tell mom and dad what you did. One of the ways, and we're going to go through this here in a minute, a couple of different illustrations was me and my sister, right? My sister was two years older than me and she had begun dating a black guy. My dad was against that for many years. And so her and this black guy, Reggie, who she's now married to, was dating and I was playing football and I had a little bit of a potty mouth. I cussed on the football field and did some things I shouldn't have done and said some things I shouldn't have done. And so she came up to me one day and she said, if you tell dad that being Reggie you're dating, I'm going to tell dad that you've been cussed on the football field. Right. It was emotional blackmail to keep me from saying things that I should have said, not should have said in the moment, but, you know, out of the protection of her in that moment, what I could have thought that would have been. But she was manipulating me to get what she wanted to keep me in the check and in the line because I didn't want to get in trouble either. So, yeah, that could happen. Brett, why don't you tell us some types of relationships that this can happen to and see if maybe any of these fit into your context, listener, of where you're at. So manipulation happens in every type of relationships. You know, you've got friend to friend manipulation. You know, who knows you better than your friend? And a lot of times friends can use the information that they have on you to manipulate you for your purposes. Another is is parent to child. And, you know, the parents try to manipulate the children. Even children try to manipulate the parents, pitting mom and dad against each other. Listen, I'm going to tell the bad news to this parent because they're the good cop and I'm going to avoid the bad cop over here. And, you know, I'm going to you know, if I ask so and so, they'll say no. But if I ask so and so, they'll say yes. And so you got to watch out for this. And you had told the story of your siblings. I've been, you know, manipulated by my cousins before. I remember one time my cousin Richie drove up to my grandparents' house on my dad's tractor. And it's like before he left, he's like, your dad gave me permission to drive a tractor. And I knew that wasn't the case. And he was just trying to manipulate me, you know, thinking I wouldn't tell dad about it. But husband and wife and wife to husband. There's, you know, manipulation there. Employer to employee. And then, of course, there's church leader to church member. And listen, I can, you know, I've told this in my testimony that I gave back when I first started on the podcast. But I had my pastor straight up just emotionally manipulate me to get me to stay in his church, running his children's church. I came in there and just as excited because, you know, I've been there wanting to be a pastor. And I was excited that I had a church looking at me. I was going to go candidate in this church. So I came in there and I said, hey, preacher, listen, in two weeks I'm going to be gone on a Sunday because I've got this church. They want me to come candidate and preach to be their pastor. And that man took his hand and slammed it down on the desk just as hard as he could. Shocked me because I had never seen him that way. I'd never seen him that mad before. And, you know, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? How did you find out about this church? I was like, well, I sent him my resume. Oh, you're looking for a church like you're looking for a job at McDonald's. When God wants you, he'll call you. You know, you'll get a phone call one day. This ain't like trying to get a job at McDonald's. And I found out the root cause of him trying to do this was because he didn't want to lose me. As far as it's like I was doing good doing the children's church. We had 100 kids in children's church from the buses. And if I was gone, he wouldn't have anybody to run it. So it was a very selfish thing. And, man, he lamb blasted me that day. And, you know, I used that as an opportunity to hit other soft spots in my life. And I walked out of that room shaking. Shaved my beard off that day. Because he said, I'll never get a good church if I have a beard. And, man, that was kind of that was the instance that broke me. Because it was about three or four days later when I woke up. I was like, oh, oh, I was being manipulated. And that's when I woke up to the situation I was in. And I got out of there just as quick as I could. But, man, just a lot of manipulation there. You heard it here first. Brett became woke in that moment. On John's episode, he said something similar to that. And I made the exact same statement. I want to give three illustrations here to sort of bolster those points. I'm going to give the husband and wife illustration and the church leader to church member illustration and some phrases that maybe you may hear. For instance, the husband may say to his wife, if you really loved me, you would cover for me. The biblical response we can give for that is, you know, love doesn't rejoice in iniquity. But, you know, love what it does that rejoices in truth. And because I love you, I'm not going to lie for you. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you the truth. You know, when someone comes into the counseling room and they tell me what's going on in their life and they tell me what's going on in the world, I love them enough to tell them the truth. And I'm going to tell them the truth that what they're doing is wrong or wicked or sinful and they need to change from those ways. And so that's a huge thing to do. Another way would be a wife to a husband. And it may say like this, that's just like you men. You're all so selfish. And the biblical response could be, you know, Bible teaches that men and women are both sinful. Men and women are both selfish. And so we can begin to address this from a biblical perspective. And I'm sure we've got a dear listener on this episode. I don't know who you are. I'm not saying this because I know exactly who I'm talking about. But this is a statement that I know you've heard because I've heard it is if your priorities were right, you'd be at church every time the doors were open. Every time Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Friday night, soul winning, Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday, whatever it is, you're going to be here. Right. And that's the manipulation of the spiritual leader from the pulpit. But, you know, the biblical response could be this, you know, brother, could you show me in the Bible where it says that Christians are supposed to be at church every time the doors are open? Haven't you taught us that God has given Christians other priorities besides their just church responsibilities? And so as long as we're being faithful and we're giving faithfully and we're serving faithfully, then that would be what we need. But not this man-made ideology of Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. You're not going to find a Sunday night service in Scripture. Brett, you say that. And I'm going to come back and talk just a minute on the history of Sunday night services. I've got just one more thing to add in there, too. I'm going to speak to the parent-child manipulation because I think for a lot of our listeners, our audience, this speaks to their context because you've got kids who've grown up and now have left the IFB. And mom and dad are still in legalism. They're still in the IFB and they're trying to manipulate their kids to come back to the true church and come back to the IFB and come back to the KJV. And some different tactics that a parent might use on their children, even grown adult children, for instance, is like guilt tripping. Guilt tripping is another manipulation form. After all I've done for you, how can you do this to me? I've been guilt tripping so many times. It's crazy. Another is the silent treatment. Maybe they'll shut you out and not talk to you or limit responses to you or whatnot. And this is just a way to get you to bend to their will, for them to control you by shutting you out. Conditional love. Conditional love is where they're only warm to you when you do things that they like or you do things that they approve of. But as soon as you step out of that, they're cold to you again. It's another form of manipulation. And here's the big one. It's just playing the victim. You know, you just made me so sad. I don't know what I did to deserve this. And, you know, these are just different tactics. So I want you to recognize these. So if your parents are trying to, even you're a grown adult, but your parents are still trying to manipulate you. Maybe if you see these, you can recognize, oh, my parents are trying to manipulate me. Yeah. You know, when I wanted to go back for just a moment to that three to thrive idea, because I was reading somewhere recently about Sunday night services and how they started. And I was amazed that the actual reason that Sunday night started, but you may not even know this, was because we used to always meet at locations during the daytime. We couldn't meet at nighttime because there was no power, electricity. And there were candles when it started getting dark. It was just inconvenient. It wasn't a great way. But when the invitation of electricity and the light bulb happened, some of the places, the first local places that got power was churches because they needed power to do things. And it was, you know, you would reach the hub of whether the church was the center of the hub. You would reach there and you'd sort of branch out. So some of the very first locations in America that got power and light bulbs were churches. And so a way that churches use this as an evangelical tool was, hey, come to church on Sunday night. We'll turn the light bulbs on and you can experience preaching and teaching and worship on a Sunday night. And it was this outreach tool and evangelism tool that brought people in on a Sunday night that had nothing else to do because there was nothing else to do on Sunday night. They had no power. They had no, they just sat around their house and did whatever they were doing. And so this was a way to bring people into a different style of service. Very evangelistic. I got saved to the Sunday night church. Okay. That's, that's where I made my decision to follow Christ. It was a Sunday night church, but that's where it started at. There was never like this biblical mandate to do it. And so now I've sort of went backward. I want to go and be with my family or be with other people's family on Sunday night because there's so much more intentionality to that. Um, so yeah, you know, as we sort of wrap up this episode and sort of go through some final things, you know, this is not limited to personality. Um, this is a hard issue. Every single person that has ever existed can fall privy to manipulation, spiritual, emotional, physical manipulation. We also can be the victimizer of manipulation. Um, any of us can be tempted to use manipulation when we feel powerless. And this is typically when it comes up is when we feel that we have no longer power to control the situation or we're not controlling the situation where we want to. And so we use this power to manipulate others. Right. Let me, let me read a verse for you. Proverbs 15, 28 says the heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. What do you think about that verse, James? You know, I hear this verse and I think, you know, instead of reacting and oftentimes I'm the guy that I'm very clear there. I'm thinking of the answer before the, the word driven finished speaking. What it's telling us is sometimes it's good to pause. Sometimes it's good to pause and ask yourself, am I responding biblically or am I responding most emotionally? Um, you know, the heart of the righteous ponders how to answer. Am I stopping and thinking, am I saying this because this is going to make James safer feel good and look good? Or am I saying this because this is what the Bible says that should be said? And this is what God has commanded us to do. And this is how Jesus would have responded. Uh, one of the things that was this last weekend when we were talking with some guys at the convention, um, I made the statement because one of the men that we were with, a great, uh, guy that we met, his name is Tim. Pray for Tim. Um, I hope to meet Tim again one day and get to hang out with him again. We had a great conversation, but, but Tim made the statement. He said, um, I just, as I go through life and I begin to think through the evil things that happened in this world, he said, I think about how Jesus would have responded. And I got to walk through Luke and then just walk through what Jesus did. And I said, Jesus sat with sinners. He went to the woman at the well. He, there was a woman caught in adultery and Jesus lovingly cared for her and cared for all these different people. But the one thing he did at the end of every single one of those stories is he looked at those people and he said, go and sin no more. I said, we have to love people enough to tell them to no longer sin, to tell them that what they're doing is wicked and ungodly. And that's not making me look better. I didn't look good in Tim's eyes when I told him that, but I gained some respect from him. I think because of the way we responded later on and that's how we can respond biblically is telling each other the truth, not necessarily out of emotion. Right. And listen, if you're on the receiving end of manipulation, don't play that game. Don't do it. Respond with truth and grace, not guilt or fear. You have the tools to recognize when somebody's trying to manipulate you and go back to to the Proverbs. You know, know when have discernment, know when to answer a fool, know when to walk away and know when to answer them, know when to be silent, know when to speak and look to Jesus. Look to his life, look to how he handled the situations because he was a master at dealing with manipulators. Yeah. It reminds me of the old song by Kenny Rogers back in 1978, Brett called The Gambler. Got to know when to hold them. You got to know when to fold them. Let me, I pulled the lyrics up just now. Got to know when to walk away. Got to know when to run. Got to know when to run. You never count your money while you're sitting at the table. There'll be enough time for counting when the dealer's done. You got to know when to hold them. You got to know when to fold them. And that is a great point. Love that song lyric you brought in. You know, the RFP guys always brought up casting crowns. Maybe Kenny Rogers is the guy we bring up and we start bringing up a Kenny Rogers song every, every time. There you go. Yeah. You know, I like how you said that. If you have been manipulated how to do that. But maybe you've realized that you were the manipulator. Maybe you look over the last couple of weeks of your life and you begin looking and hearing some of these things and go, you know, that was me. I was manipulating someone in that area. Now is the time to repent. Now is the time to confess that that desire for control was ungodly and to replace it with trust in God's sovereignty. And understanding that you don't have to be in control always. You can trust the Lord. He's the God that is sovereign and in control. And there's provision there in his ways. And maybe that was where you're at today. That's right. You know, ultimately freedom from manipulation, whether giving or receiving, comes from letting Christ be the one in control. Yeah. It's great stuff, Brett. I think this is something we all struggle with. We just don't think about it enough. And the more we think about it, the more we can actually begin to say, am I doing this out of control? Am I doing this out of love or out of what the Lord wants me to do? And, you know, and listen, manipulation isn't always evil looking. You know, sometimes it comes dressed up. Sometimes it can wear the mask of concern or I'm just concerned. But you've got to know when to recognize it. Yeah. And one of the things that I've learned over my years is this one little statement. That truth and love, when they come in contact with each other, when the love that you have towards someone and the truth of God's word comes in contact with that same love, the control that we have will lose its grip. Because we love someone so much that we're going to tell them the truth and we're not going to try to control what they're doing. But if either one of those is out of balance, you'll continue to have control. And you'll continue to fight to manipulate to have that control over others. Or someone's going to manipulate you to have control over you because they don't truly love you or truly have the truth for you. And so understanding that is a massive, massive way. Amen. Amen. That's good stuff. Well, thanks for joining us. If this episode has helped you, share it with someone who needs biblical clarity on this issue. And, James, you got anything else? I think that's it, man. It's been a great talk. And we've got just like two or three episodes left for this year. And then we'll take a break for the winter. And so be on the lookout for that. Thank you for listening these last couple of weeks. And like I said at the earlier part, go by and check out our products that we have on our website. Go by. And if you're interested in Israel, reach out to us. If you're interested in those free books, let us know. And we are looking forward to what God is going to do for us in 2026. We've already been planning for it. We're excited for what he's got going on. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning that has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast.

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