159. Canceled In The IFB - Olivia Harding (We Are One Podcast)

I found my freedom in you I found a joy I can't lose And thank God it's true You wrapped your arms around me And heaven broke through From the moment you found me I found my freedom in you Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Safer and Brad Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. What a great day it is today to be serving the Lord. What a great day it is to be in front of the microphone today. We are excited what the Lord is doing. And always grateful for you as listeners to be a part of the episode today. We are excited about what we've got coming up today. A great interview that we have lined up. And we hope it will be a blessing to you. But we are enjoying this talk through the woke culture. Some topics that don't always get talked about. And definitely haven't been talked about a lot in our realm. But we are excited about talking through them. Before we get started with that, Brett, how are you doing? How are things going on your side of the world? Man, things are going over here in my church. Things are going over here in my life. Just busy, busy time of life. And we're doing things in church. And we're just excited to be here. We've got 70-degree weather right now. But I just heard last night that we got 30 degrees coming next week. I'm not looking forward to that. I'm ready for the cold weather to be over with. Just the older I get, the more I'm just done with it. And this hit and wave after wave of cold weather, it's just not my thing. I feel like an old man. And I'm ready for it just to be spring and get done with. We had our council meeting last night. We've got Easter as far as church goes. We've got Easter coming up. I've got a lot of things planned for this Easter for us. We're going to do mailers and door hangers. We're going to have a Facebook ad. We're going to give out handheld invitations. We're going to try to play with the times and see if we can get more people, if we bump it up an hour. And so we're just going to kind of play with that a little bit. But just a great time to be in church. Great day. A great time to be a child of God, to be in ministry and couldn't be happier. I love it. Yeah, we just had our beginning meeting on that same thing and talking through. We do a big sunrise service outside in the graveyard. And that's part of this year with Easter being later. That puts the later in the year, that puts the sunrise earlier in the day, earlier in the morning. And so we had to talk through those things. But yeah, we're excited about that. We're recording this the week before. But we had a huge Super Bowl party. And we had like 30 or 40 people from the church come over for the Super Bowl. Brett, at the time of recording, we don't know what has happened to the Super Bowl. Do you want to give your projections today of who do you think? And then at the time of the recording, when it comes out, we can see who's right and who's wrong. What are your thoughts on that? I think the winner of the Super Bowl is going to be Taylor Swift. Amen. I do think the Chiefs are going to – is it a three-peat if they win? I think it's a three-peat. If they win. First time – not the first team to do a three-peat, but the first team to do a Super Bowl three-peat. The Green Bay Packers were the first to do it, and they did it twice back in the 20s. And then the first two Super Bowls, Green Bay won, but they won the NFL championship before that, which before it was the Super Bowl. So they won three in a row. What's the coach of the Chiefs' name? Andy Reid, baby. So they asked him, what's your favorite trilogy, like movie trilogy? And his answer was, oh, well, let's see, the Holy Bible. And I was like, man, yeah, that's good. And then he said, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. I was like, oh, no. Yeah, well, when he said trilogy, I figured that was coming. I'm going Eagles, man. I'm putting all my bet on the Eagles. Several people have asked me. I think that Jalen Hurts is doing much better as a quarterback. I think Saquon Barkley is doing great. They gave him the MVP. I believe he got the MVP. Saquon Barkley did. I just – I think the Chiefs are – the Chiefs are not clicking the way they need to right now. And the Eagles are peaking where they need to be peaking. And so I think that's where I'm going to go. We'll find out Sunday. And we'll have a great time. We've got a lot of people, like I said, our whole small group, Sunday school, all the kids. They're planning to be at a house. And so we're going to have a house full, man. It's going to be awesome. Just – I mean, really, about half the church is going to be at our house. And we can't wait. It's going to be a great time. We love entertaining. We love hanging out. We love doing that. Brett, we've got a great thing going on right now with our cigar company. We'd love for you guys, if you are one of those listeners that enjoy that, we would love for you to share that information. It's on our website. It's on our Facebook page. You can see a link there to that link to be able to get some of those. It's very affordable when it comes to cigars, and it's a great way to show an appreciation to us and also to help some guy out that needs some. Maybe it's a female as well. I know some female cigar smokers as well. And so this is an awesome opportunity that we've got. It's opened some doors for us to have some creative conversations, and we'll be continuing to talk through that as our line just continues to explore. And, Brett, what else do we have going on? I want to make a plea to everybody right now. Please start saving your money now. Do it now. Start putting away. Get a coffee can. Start putting some money in it. Because beginning of next year, we're going back to Israel. Now, we have a tentative date, but we don't want to say that date yet until we nail it down. But it's going to be anywhere from January to March, beginning of 2026. Start saving now. It's safe. There are tours over there right now. Our buddy Marcus Merritt is going there next month with 30 people. Brian and Hope Church, they're taking a group over there in September. And it's going to be a great trip. It's going to be a great time. So start saving now. Put back. And come to Israel with us. I'm telling you. It's safe. And the next four years are going to be the safest time to go to Israel that they'll be in your entire life. I promise you. Absolutely. Man, I can't wait. It's going to be great. We said this last time, and I'm getting all those videos, all those memories that pop up from Israel. And if you see this right up here behind me, this black box is my shadow box of the Israel rocks that I got while I was there. Man, just a blessing to be able to think back through that. I mean, there's not a day that goes by that I don't remember something that happened, something that was mentioned. It may be something in the news where they mention a location. And I'm like, man, I was there. I remember being there. I remember stepping foot there. And what an awesome time it's going to be. We hope you go with us. And if you have any questions about that, reach out to us. The information about the trip, the dates aren't on there, but the trip itself is on our website, forfreedompodcast.com. And we'd love for you to go and check that out. And, Brett, without further ado, let's jump into this episode today, this interview that we've got going on. It'll be a great time, and I hope you enjoy it. We cannot truly worship God while we stay silent on injustice in all kinds of areas. And I know, as a white pastor, I have blind spots. So I am part of the problem. James, Paul, elected to unhitch the Christian faith from their Jewish scriptures. And my friends, we must as well. White people fear black men. That's not fair. But it's true. Jesus repents of his racism and extends healing to this woman's daughter. I love this story because it's a reminder that Jesus is human. He had prejudices and bias, and when confronted with it, he was willing to do his work. I believe in Jesus Christ, their child, who wore a fabulous tunic and had two dads, and saw everyone as a sibling child of God. I believe in the rainbow spirit who shatters our image of one white light and refracts it into a rainbow of gorgeous diversity. I believe in the church of everyday saints, as numerous, creative, and resilient as patches on the eighth quilt, whose feet are grounded in mud and whose eyes gaze at the stars in wonder. I believe in the calling to each of us that love is love is love. So, beloved, let us love. I believe, glorious God. Help my unbelief. Amen. This woke self-loathing. And we will never let the woke left take it away. It's because they're putting woke ideology. To a woke mob that can't even tell you what a woman is. In this season of the For Freedom Podcast, we want to bring to you some enlightening topics that deal with the wokeness of the church. We want to bring to light some issues that are often overlooked. And we hope that it will be a blessing to you in your listening experience. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, right there. Everybody okay? Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast again. We are excited about having a guest here with us today, Olivia Harding. And she is with the We Are One Podcast. I had an awesome opportunity a couple, maybe last year, to go on her podcast and share some things about what the Lord was doing in our life. And then she asked for my wife to go on the podcast and share some of her story. My wife was super nervous. We're trying to get my wife and Brett's wife to come on and do a wives podcast episode. And she just doesn't like talking behind a microphone. She's a teacher for a living, but she just doesn't like doing that. But we're excited about having Olivia here. Olivia, why don't you share sort of your church background, a little bit about your podcast, who you are, introduce yourself to the guest. And we'll jump into some questions here in just a minute. Yeah, so I'm Olivia. I am from Indianapolis, Indiana. I was born and raised in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, or as most people know, the IFB. I was in it for about 20 years. I left right at the peak of COVID. And, you know, growing up, I also am different from a lot of IFB people in a way because I went to public school. So I saw both the real world and also the fundamental world in a way. My parents got divorced my freshman year. And my dad dealt with substance abuse from injury in his back. And I think that that kind of was like the tip of the iceberg with a lot of other things within my parents' marriage. And so we got out of the church for a couple of years because divorce is a big no-no. And my mom didn't want to kind of be in that environment going through a divorce because she didn't know how they would react. My dad was like a trustee, but my mom never really got involved with the church as much just because she had us back to back. And she was like, my life was crazy with three, you know. And so she wasn't the typical IFB woman so much. And so we kind of were always like the black sheep family because my parents also were like, no, we're not going to shelter our kids in some ways. But when I went to my friends and stuff like that, I had to listen to the IFB rules, no pants, culottes only, you know, Bible before bed, you know, all this stuff. And there's good aspects to some of it, but most of it is just I don't agree with. And so that was kind of like a shock to me because I always felt like, wait, why don't we do this at home? You know, and you look at your parents and you're like, well, my parents do it, so they must be right, right? So I'm like, these people, I don't know what they're doing, you know. And I would always come back from like my friends and I'd be like, mom, I had to wear culottes. I had to change into culottes before Deacon blah, blah, blah came over. And she's like, yeah, that's just the rules. But and I'm like, this is just so weird. So and I'm open about it also on my podcast, my, you know, platform and stuff. But I went through a wild stage in a way of just rebellious teenage stuff. I did things that I had no business doing at 14 and 15. But I just genuinely, I felt like nobody was listening to me. Like my parents was getting divorced, no longer in church. Everything was kind of just up in the air, didn't know what was happening with my life. And being around, I guess, a worldly influence and friends from school, I would go party and stuff. And I look back now at my life. I'm 24 years old. And I look back and I am thankful that I actually went through that because then I wouldn't be where I am today. But I kind of also regret that I put my parents through a lot too because they were going through their own stuff. They shouldn't have had to worry about things that I put them through. But yeah, so I started We Are One podcast last year after watching the Let Us Pray Ministry of Scandals documentary. When we got out during COVID, a lot of things transpired in my former church. My former pastor was on head of directors with the Circle of Hope Girls Ranch. My parents donated money to the ranch. We thought this was a good place. And to find out that it wasn't. And my former pastor never and still has yet to ever come out and say that, you know, he didn't agree with it or anything like that. Really kind of put like a bad taste in our mouth in a way. But there was a lot of things that led up to the decision. And I think with having COVID, even though COVID was a hard year, years for everyone, whether that you lost a loved one due to COVID or just being isolated and mental health sinking. It really was like a saving point because I don't think like if COVID never happened, I don't know where I would be. I would probably still be in I've been away. Maybe not so much. But I would still have probably a lot of the fundamental thinkings and theology because that's what you know. So I started the podcast after I watched the documentary. I just thought, okay, there is so many people on this world that understand me. I thought I was alone. I thought I was crazy for thinking certain things. Oh, wait. You know, when they did the swallowing goldfish episode, I was like, oh, my gosh. Trauma unblocked, you know, type of thing. And I was like, wait, there's people out here that are like that could relate, you know. And so after that, I would say for about a week or so, I really felt like the Holy Spirit really put on my heart to do something. I didn't know what it was. And even though I love to yap, as you can tell, I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't want to be like this wannabe influencer, trying to get all these views, you know, how people portray that. So I was like, I'll do a podcast. And I looked up, I taught myself how to do a podcast from YouTube and stuff like that. And when I released my episode, the nerves were, I mean, it's intense when you're opening up and sharing things that you thought probably you would keep forever. And you're like, hey, world, here you go. Judge me. You know, it was very nerve wracking. But I feel like as time has gone on and we're now in season two, the amount of growth also just in my spiritual walk and in everything like that has really helped me. I feel like the woman I am today is who I needed when I was younger. And if I can help someone, whether they're 16 listening to the podcast or they're in a Bible college, or if they just got out of the IFB and they think that they've lost it all. And whether they have lost it all, I want them to know that there still is a God out there that truly do love you and that you don't need the IFB. And it's actually far from what God's grace and love is. And so I want someone, if I can help one person out in this world feel less alone, then I feel like I'm doing God's calling. Right. Brett, how many did you swallow in your day? Many. I swallowed many goldfish. I had a system. You had to be sure that you swallowed it head down or it'd swim back up. I like to chase mine with a Dr. Pepper. I had a guy on my bus route who would chew it up, put it on his tongue, show all the bus kids and then swallow it. I was never that crazy. But, you know, I will say that it is there's something to this when you've been in the IFB and you tell somebody your story and they can relate to it. It feels like you're not alone anymore. Like I can stand up as a pastor and I can preach and I can tell these stories and people that have never experienced the IFB, they look at you like a calf looks at a new gate. Wide eyed. They have no idea that something like this even exists. And so there is something therapeutic. There's something beneficial to being a part of a community, finding people you can confide in. Because when you're in the IFB, you do feel like you're on an island. You do feel like you're sequestered by yourself and nobody can relate to anything that you're going through. And Olivia, I relate to your story, too, because as well, I grew up in a secular world, too. I was a bus kid. So while my parents were, you know, didn't go to the church, I did. And so my city and I went to the Christian school at the church. So my secular portion of my life was with my family, with my cousins. But then I went to school and attended the IFB church. And so that's kind of that. I'm similar to that story in your way. And I know in my own personal experience, I've experienced people being canceled or shunned from the IFB because they changed certain things. They did certain things. I know for me, when I got out, when I was getting out, I posted a version of the NIV. And it's like you to think that I just, you know, put a terror threat on Facebook. And so a lot of my friends left me. A lot of my people dumped me. I've heard of stories of people, you know, their preaching engagements get canceled because, oh, you went and preached at so-and-so's church. I'm going to call and I'm going to get all these other churches to cancel you. And so canceling and shunning is a tool that the hardcore IFB uses. And I just want to ask you, what areas in the IFB have you seen people canceled over? This kind of goes with the theme of our season. We're talking about cancel culture in our regular season. And we know that the IFB cancels people and shuns people. So what areas have you seen people canceled over in the IFB? Yeah, I would say starters. There's definitely if you mention anything that is, I guess, asking too many questions in a way. Like if you go, I feel like if you go up to IFB pastor and you're like, hey, you know, you said this and it's not really making any sense. And they don't give you the answer. They just say, well, you need to reread your scripture. Don't question the man of thought, you know. Then you already have to like have like a target on your back. Like this person's asking too many questions. So then they start isolating you in a way of don't hang around this person because their theology, they're kind of they're slipping away from God in that mindset. Another one, I think, is also a dress code. I definitely as a woman, if you weren't wearing a skirt or something that was, you know, looked upon. And well, we can't hang out with you because you're not doing this. You're not doing that. You're not going to, you know, you're telling me that you don't wear a skirt every single day of your life, but then we're not coming to your house type of thing. I also think that people are getting canceled over in IFB, definitely with the scandals that, you know, have definitely came to aired within the past couple of years. A lot of people are questioning things. And I think overall, once you question an IFB, you're immediately canceled in a way. And also, I've seen this firsthand. People who say, hey, we're moving. So we found this other great independent fundamental Baptist church thing. We're going to start going there because, you know, distance and whatever. And it's like immediately you're out of God's will. No, this is my, you know, this is the church. Like, I think every IFB church thinks that they're going to be the only ones in heaven, right? Like, they're the right and the truth and the way, you know, whatever. And you get canceled. And it's like, wait, I'm still going to an IFB church. But it's like, nope, you're not going to our church. And it's like that mindset of like, you might be saved, but you're really not that good of a Christian because you're not going here. So then you get canceled in a way. And I think that the IFB is huge on shunning. I have experienced it myself. I have witnessed plenty of people and talked to so many people around the world that have experienced shunning. And I think that is probably the number one most damaging thing is when someone either leaves IFB or they question something. And it's automatically you got a target on your back. And a pastor said this, actually, that's going to be up on our series or whatever. He said if what they do to cancel you is because they don't have the right answer for you. So they have to diminish and tear you down and ruin your character or whatever because they can't let the truth be told. So they will do anything they can to cancel you because they know what you're saying is true or they look at it as a threatening way. So what do you do in today's world? I'm going to cancel someone. I'm going to cancel you because it's easier to diminish feelings and character than just say, you know what? That's the truth. So I have seen it well over so many people and examples in IFB. It's very rapid, rapidly. But the second you question, you already have a target on your back. And it's because you're questioning the man of God, the authority. And it's very controlling and very narcissistic if you ask me. Yeah, I think basically to sum up what you said was you can be canceled over anything in the IFB. As little as it is of not wearing the right thing or identifying the right way or talking the right way. Those are things that oftentimes because we are people of preference, we can oftentimes elevate preference over what Scripture says. And when we church as pastors, as we lead a church, we want to do things the right way. And oftentimes the right way is not always our way, even though we want to push that out of our way. And we see this, the hurt that happens often when people are canceled. And so what I want to ask you in your area of you, you've interviewed lots of people in your podcast. You've talked to lots of different people who were born and raised in church and are now atheists. You've talked to pastors, you've talked to pastor's wives. You've talked to a lot of different people. And one of the reasons why we want to have you come on was to sort of talk through some responses that people have. When they get canceled, when things happen, whether they're in Bible college, whether they're out in the world in church and on staff somewhere, whatever it may be. What are the typical responses that we see when we come across people in the IFB who have been canceled? Yeah, great question. So I feel like because with the podcast, I've talked to the, I mean, I've talked to 70 year olds, like it ranges. And the number one thing is church hurt and the bitterness and the anger. And unfortunately, a lot of the people that I have had on the podcast, you know, identify more as agnostic and atheist now because they look at it as, well, all my life I heard this was God. All my life I looked at scripture and this is what it says. And even if you, you know, they say you got to take it word for word. And if that's it, then I don't, I don't want it. Right. And so I've always said to a lot of people though, who say that because they follow up with, but if I had to get back into it or I once was getting back into faith because something happened in my life and I immediately started praying or something. They always say, I was always looking for an answer. And I'm like, okay, you know, and I'm like, that's understandable. We're all looking for answers in some way, whether we never get them or we get them within an hour type of thing. And a lot of people though, and I've said this on my podcast too, a lot of, a lot of atheists and agnostic people were once believers and they really have the bitterness. And most of them I have talked to say that I just haven't found a church. You know, I live in a small town. They're all IFB or they all have that mindset of the standards and rules. They don't have the, you know, the just Jesus, right? They don't have that. They're missing it and they want it, but they don't know how to. I've had, I've talked with a couple of people who are a part of the LGBTQ and they flat out said, I still love God, but I will never walk back in a church. I will never walk back in. I will never have that relationship with a church because church hurt. And that's usually the typical response. A lot of, a lot of people I've talked to said that they had to go to therapy to get over the bitterness and anger. And so I think the typical response is when they get canceled in the IFB one, I think it's first sad because you lose everything in a way. You don't know where you're going to go. You don't know. Cause most of the time when you go up in the IFB, that's your whole life. You spend six, seven days out of the week there. That's all you've ever known. Those people are your church family, as they say. And once you lose that, you don't know. And so you start scrambling and you're looking for answers. And most people do a whole 360. They completely change their whole entire life because they're like, I live that life. Let me see what the world is. They get that little ounce of freedom and they change 360. And, but I would say the typical response is either, Hey, I, and I just still with a lot of people at church her. And I just, I have a relationship with God, but I will never step back into church. And, or I don't know how to get back into church. And some people have flat out said, I had a good childhood in the IFB. But when I started looking at scientific things or whatever, that's when I noticed. And to that, I just say, okay, you know, I respect you. And to each their own, because it's just not my, I don't think it's my place to judge. I'm like, it is what it is because at the end of the day, we all have free will. God gave us free will. And if that's what you want to do with your life, then sure. And so I always let people know that, you know, you can come on if you're atheist and agnostic, but I'm still a Christ follower. I go now to church. I took about two and a half years for me to even go into church building, but I did. And I, and I'm glad I did. But you also don't need to go into a church building. I know I'm speaking to you guys as pastors, but to have a relationship with God, because at the end of the day, it really is your relationship with God. You should want to go to church, but you don't, I don't think you have to go to church, but I know that's probably unpopular take speaking to pastors. Yeah. I think, well, you know, no, go ahead. I think one thing you mentioned that I think is, well, two things. One, you said that oftentimes there's sadness when people get this hurt from the IFB because their whole life is wrapped up in church and the culture of where they're at. And it's a great thing, but the sadness comes because all of a sudden your entire life structure is now uprooted. And then I like to give the analogy that I heard years ago of the pendulum swing where they're so far on this side of, of, of where they're supposed to be. That when hurt happens, they swing so far to the opposite side. Well, if the church said that this is the right way, then they're now wrong because I'm no longer there. So I've got to do the opposite of what they've done. And it takes a couple of years. It takes a couple of years of coming through that to sort of get that balance back in that swing where it needs to be. And not too far one way or the other. And so those are great things. Brett, what's your thoughts? Well, I mean, I agree with you. You took the words right out of my mouth. You know, when I think about the situation, I think about, you know, the analogy of the tale of two ditches. And you've got one ditch that's, you know, legalism, hardcore legalism. And you have the other ditch that's antinomianism and just swing to so far the other way. And a balance between the two is kind of where we need to be at. And Olivia, I think that that you've found a way to strike that balance. You know, you have atheists and agnostics come on your podcast. But at the same time, you let them know, hey, I still love God. I still, you know, want to worship the Lord. And so I want to get to your personal story and talk about personal examples in your life of you kind of being canceled in the IFB and explore your experience a little bit. Yeah. So one of the main reasons, and I think I shared this on my episode. But if not, then it'll be the first time that I actually share this. But one of the main reasons why I think I kind of draw the line of IFB and just completely left was because I was very involved with the nursery. I babysat most of the young families. I was that nursery girl, Sunday school, junior high. I was missing my public high school football games to go watch their kids so then they could do this or that or whatever for the church. And there was a family who I was extremely close with. And I had made a Facebook post about an incident with IMPD that I think could have completely went. It should have just never happened. Okay. And I just flat out said that her husband is a cop. So I think she took more offense to it. And I understand. I respect law enforcement. I have nothing but respect for them. But I think that some of the things also need to be revised, I guess, and looked at. And so that's what I was trying to say. And the following Sunday, I was walking out of the bathroom. And her daughter had came up. And we were extremely close. I mean, like me and her, that little girl, we just had this bond. Like everybody knew. And she came up. And she gave me a hug. And I was, you know, picking her up. And my mom's standing in front of me. And the mom had walked over. She didn't say nothing. She ripped her daughter out of my hands. And I remember yelling. I remember yelling. If that's Christ-like, if that's so Christian-like, then I'm done. I was like, I'm done. And I remember walking out those doors. I remember looking at my mom. And I said, and my mom, if you know her, she got mama bear. So she's like, oh, I can't believe that just happened. And keep in mind, we're in an IFP church. And I'm like, I'm done. I'm like, that, I am, nope, I am done. And so that hurt and anger and bitterness. And then COVID happened. Literally two weeks later, everything shut down. And I remember, I remember thinking like, I just cannot believe this happened. How am I going to get back in that church after it opened? You know, we're able to open up. And as time went on, I just kept on getting that. No, I don't want to. Like, there was more things, obviously, with like my former youth pastor that I opened up about. But I had dealt with that. But being a podcast host, talk about cancellation. Talk about bullying. I have had death threats. I have had legal threats that do not intimidate me. They don't scare me. Um, I've had, I've had people that have known me my whole entire life who would change my diapers, like scream about me to other members that I was once friends with and a gem about me. I've had people tell about certain people that have been on my podcast that we grew up in the same former church. I've had the pastor's wife flat out say that they were liars, that this never happened, or it did happen, but they're just looking for their five minutes of fame. Um, so I have literally got the most cancellation from all angles, um, from people who've known me my whole entire life. My parents were really close, actually, with my former pastor and pastor's wife. Um, a lot of people don't know that, but they, they were, they would go on golf trips. They would, we would go camping, surprisingly. Um, and I think that was also what her, also my mom too. Nobody reached out. Nobody, nobody said, Hey, I haven't seen you this Sunday. Hey, I haven't seen you in a month. You know what, what's going on? Nobody's ever reached out about the podcast and said, I mean, there's a few members that have said, Hey, you made a comment about this or whatever. And I just want to make sure. And I sent them the mug, Sean said, here you go. You know what I say? It's factual stuff. It's not just, he said, she said, you know, and, and stuff like that. And so I, I've gotten canceled from every angle you can think of, whether it's being just tearing down my character or physically yanking a child out of my arms and was like, no. So I have experienced all cancelizations. And to that, which I say, if you're doing something right, then you won't get canceled. You know what I mean? Like they can try to do that, but I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing. I'm going to continue my podcast. I always say the haters are my motivators. So I am going to keep on the cancel, cancel. I always say you can't cancel me in a way. It just doesn't, it doesn't face me. Cause I, I don't do this for fame or views or likes or whatever. Um, I just do it because I truly believe that God called me to do this and it's helped me in my life and my faith. And it's kind of like therapeutic, like, wait, I feel like every time I record someone like now talking with you, you know, I haven't met you, Brett. Technically I had James on season one and I met his wife to Alison and to be able to just sit on here and like relate. Like it's therapeutic. Like, it's like, wait, you swelled goldfish too, Brett. Wow. Join the club. You know? So I always say you can't cancel me. You can try all you want, but I have pretty thick skin, but I've experienced it too. Yeah. I think it's interesting that, that it all started with you with something that didn't have anything to do with church. You know, the, a post about law enforcement and about your own personal views had nothing to do with religion, had nothing to do with the Bible or scripture. Um, and that's what caused the firestorm to start happening. Um, me and Brett and me and John, we've talked in the past about, um, this, we have eight stages of leaving legalism and what that looks like. And the, the first stage is delusionment. Uh, when all of a sudden the, uh, scales that we have been told sort of start falling off when the people that you trust or something happens a moment in the, in the event where the dam begins to break and you begin to see everything, um, is, is what happened. And that's sort of what you're seeing here and what you've, is this is, there was just the one area, that one small thing that allowed everything else to sort of show through and be able to see, oh, wow, there is something unhealthy here. There is something that needs to be changed here. So, um, as we think through that, oftentimes one of the things, and, uh, one of our very first podcast episodes we ever recorded was, uh, with Nathan Gravatt on bitterness and not being bitter. Uh, because oftentimes more times than not, when we talk to people who have went through the IFB and they, uh, began to come out of the IFB, one of the initial responses is this bitterness, that anger that comes inside of us. That we, uh, had our entire life wrapped up into it. And now, um, it's all taken away. The, the veil has been torn and we get to see the truth behind it and the, the bitterness of, uh, I've wasted all these years. I've wasted or put in all this time and effort and money and energy and just the, the disappointment, I guess you could say as well. Uh, but really what I'm trying to get at is what, what are three ways that you sort of in, in the last couple of years of talking to people are ways we can respond to not get bitter when we're canceled? Hmm. Yeah. Good question. I think for sure. Um, I think when, you know, especially with the IFB, um, I always tell everyone bitterness is normal. Anger is normal. Feel those emotions, but don't stay in those emotions. Look at the bigger picture. How I look at is when I left in 2020 and I got out and I didn't go to church for two years, the bitterness and angerness that took over my life. And just, I was a miserable person. I was not a happy person. So I made everyone around me life. How basically, because I was not happy. I was mad that all my life I got told this and this, I thought this was Jesus's way. I thought the Bible said this, um, you know, having my former youth pastor stand up there and literally say to the congregation on a random Sunday, Hey, I was never saved. I accepted Jesus Christ. I remember the anger that day standing in the nursery and I talk about it on my podcast. And it's something I think that I will probably always struggle with because I looked at him as a godly man. And you're telling me that all throughout high school, the, the most important years is your youth. And you're going to do that. And then I can't take you serious. And then you start raveling like, okay, what's real and what's not. And so I always tell people feel the feelings, don't avoid them, but don't stay in them because then they will take a part of your future. And so for me, basically, I think that the only appropriate response to deal with bitterness is try to see the bigger picture. What are some things that you can take as positives that outweigh the negatives? For me, I look at some lifelong friends. I still have, even with doing the podcast, I look at my faith, right? I look at my parents, even though my parents, there was a lot of resentment, anger for a lot of things that I had to go through as a child. But I look at them also as, I hate the word victim, but a victim too. And I do believe so strongly in my heart that most people in the IFB are good humans. They are just doctrine and false teachings and man-made roles. And they are really good people. And that was something I had to grasp on after season one, that I realized that there is good people out there. There's good members. There are good people out there that are just falling blindly. They are not the enemy. And try to not be as bitter and anger when approaching things. Because in the long run, my mission is for everyone to get out of the IFB in a perfect world, right? Stop the legalism, the legalistic man-made roles. See Jesus, have that relationship with Jesus. And so I always say to not get bitter is kind of unrealistic because I think that the emotion is very real and raw. But just don't stay in it. Don't. Because, and I also say this too. I always got told that to save a face. Just do it. Be the bigger person. Just say I'm sorry, whatever, to keep the peace. But then I realized whose peace is it keeping? It's not keeping mine. So, say what you need to say. Get it off your chest. The Bible says go to them. Do it. In the most respectful way or whatever. And then say, you know what, God? I did it. Now it's up to you. And that's what I always say. You can feel your emotions. Just don't stay in them too long. Because then eventually the boat will start sinking. And then your life will start really going under the waves. And so, that's, I would say that's kind of how I would respond to bitterness. Because I think it would be far-fetched just to say, don't get bitter. Because that's just, that's unrealistic. Yeah. I think one, you said one thing that I thought was really great about peace and making peace with others. We are called to be peacemakers. And I'm a believer in that. I'm a believer that we should make peace. Sometimes it may take a couple of years of trying to figure out life before you can actually go back to the ones that have hurt you and make peace with them. But I do believe that we should live in that peace. But oftentimes it should be biblical peace. It shouldn't be peace that is pleasing someone just to make someone feel better or to live in unity. Even though we should live in unity, it should be a biblical reconciliation and peace and grace on both areas. And so, I think that's a great way to look at it and a great way to think about it as well. You said that and it sort of came to my mind. And I love that response of how you said you grabbed onto family and faith and friends and those that are around you. And that is a community of people that are going to help you when times are tough. And so, I appreciate that. Brett, what are your thoughts? You know, back when in my own experience, I was getting attacked on Facebook. And people were posting about me and posting these things and calling me effeminate and all this stuff. Because I prayed a different version and a lot of people came out of the woodwork. I had preacher friends who were friends with me for years. Just kind of dumped me all at once. And one of the most tempting things that I was tempted to do was get right back on Facebook. Get back on social media. Put them on blast. Cancel them. Give them a dose of their own medicine. And I just want to talk about a healthy way we can react. I ultimately didn't do that. But I want to talk about a healthy way we can react to this type of shunning and this type of cancel. Now, I do agree with you. You know, not to stay silent when there's an issue going on. You know, we need people that are brave enough. Like you said, go to them one-on-one and say, look, this is wrong. I'm coming to you. You know, that's a biblical way to handle that. But sometimes, you know, people want to, you know, put the shoe on the other foot. They want to get on Facebook. They want to blast people. They want to cancel them in return. You know, I think about Jesus. You know, there was an aspect of grace and compassion when he was questioned. And, you know, he didn't say a word against an accusation against him. And so I just want to, last kind of question I have, I just want to kind of ask you how, when we are canceled, do we not, you know, kind of blast others, cancel them in return? Yes, there's an area where you got to speak truth. But where's the line where you stop? Okay, now I'm getting into trying to attack them the way they attacked me. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Yeah, I mean, I think that's for sure a struggle for mine in the way of my podcast. Because my mission is to expose the truth within the walls of the IFB. And there is times maybe where, whether that's my tone or another guest or something that is coming off, like we're bashing them. And to which I say, if you wanted us to speak highly of you, then you should have treated us differently. And that the truth shall always be, you know, it's biblical, you know, whatever happens in the dark will come to light. And so I am all for, in a way of not bashing, but also to make sure the truth gets out. So if you have a pastor who's covering up abuse, well, best believe I will, I will out you in a way. Because if you're most IFB pastors, you can go to them. And what are they going to say? Nope, you don't question me. I'm authority of man, you know what I mean? Or the, well, that never happened. And then you find out five years later, it did happen, you know, and sweeping out of the rug. And a lot of survivors are silenced. And a lot of them truly just want accountability. I think it really comes down to accountability instead of bashing, even though it appears to be bashing when you're talking about certain people or a certain college or a certain church or whatever. And I always say to them that make sure that our mission stays the truth, to expose the truth in a way where we don't turn people away when it comes off like we're bitter and anger or violent or anything like that or bashing. We're just simply saying our truth. And, you know, there is two sides to every story. But when there's breaking news and you see a pastor on the news and you have 101 charges, well, I'm going to believe the news, you know, I'm going to believe the law enforcement and stuff like that and to cover it. But I think that you can still show compassion definitely to just simple members in the church that are so indoctrined with that legalism and legalistic ways. And there are some people that truly, I think, wholeheartedly believe and know that when you get out of the IFB and you say, hey, I changed my views on dress. I realize that's not my conviction. That was pastor. I think it's fine for my wife to wear pants. I think it's fine for my daughter to wear pants. I think it's fine for me to read my Bible once a week instead of daily, you know what I mean, like type of thing. And then I have those people. And then I also have the people who just strictly believe like this is the way and this is the way. And I always say, well, I don't know, but we shall see you one day and we'll know. So I think it's doable in a biblical way. Like what I said earlier, to go to that person, right? You're supposed to go to that person. When you're getting hurt or something happened, you're like, hey, even if your intentions were per, they still hurt me. You know, you said this. What did you mean by it? But in the IFB, you don't get that. And that's what I think is damaging because there's no accountability. And it's just because of the system, how it is. But that umbrella that they use, it's here, here, here. And it's like you can't do it. There's no questions. There's no open mind. There's no free thinking. And so I think that's what hurts because it's like most of us, we want to come to you with compassion. We want to look at you and say, you know what? You're just, you know, you're doctrine wrong, man. Like you just don't understand. And so I think it's hard, though. I'm going to be honest. I think definitely being a podcast host and what my podcast stands for. But I always say, too, if we want people out of it, we got to make sure that we stay true to ourselves, the truth. I think tone is everything. And words are everything. Because I can ramble on for three hours about why I think this and this and that. But if my tone is aggressive, if it's anger, if it's coming off this way, people are going to listen to Minsab and they're going to think, she's just out for revenge. I've heard that one, too. And so I think that God gives us so many lessons in the Bible of grace and compassion, how to treat others. And to which I say, I'm not the judger. I'll let God do that. I will love my neighbor because that's what he wants me to do. And, yeah. I like the distinction you made between, like, the abuser, man of God, and then the person in the pew that's just indoctrinated. I like the distinction you made there. A hundred percent. If there's abuse, we need to expose it. And so I'm for you there. And I appreciate what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. I love, Brett, how you pointed out what Jesus. When Jesus, I mean, ultimately, he was canceled by religious people, right? And he's the son of God. He could have got up and we know that he could have called 10,000 angels down to destroy everything that was going on. But instead, he didn't speak a word. And I think I had a couple weeks ago in my message that Jesus not saying anything and not defending himself. When he was put on the cross, the soldiers in that moment looked at each other and said, truly, this is the son of God. And I think oftentimes our actions speak a whole lot louder than our words can. Because as you said, Olivia, our words can sometimes come across as in a certain tone that we are revengeful. We are aggressive toward people. But how are our actions and what are we doing? Because our actions speak so much louder. And by allowing people to come onto our platform to share their voices and to share their hurt and to share their concern and to show care through the countless DMs that we've gotten and text messages and phone calls that we've gotten from people. I mean, that's the actions that we're doing to help people who have been hurt. And that's the ways where we can show grace and compassion in ways that we'll never see on this side. We'll never see who we've helped and how we've shared encouragement. And it's just a blessing to be able to do that. Olivia, any closing remarks from you or any things that you want to say before we end the call today? Yeah. Yeah. So when we, you know, we go back and forth about like with the Bible and stuff like that, what would you, I guess like for me, because I'm so used to doing this too. What would you say for someone who listens to my podcast and they'll see that we collabed or whatever? What would you say to someone who wants to get back in church after leaving the legalistic world and the fundy, I say fundy, but fundy world and having that mindset that all preachers are like that? Because I did. I thought that I thought all Baptist churches, if I saw a Baptist sign, I thought you're IFB, right? And then I'm realizing now there's Southern Baptist. There's, you know, all type of branches. What would you say to someone coming from a pastor though aspect, where can they start after leaving the legalistic and fundy world? Yeah, I'll start and I'll throw it to Brett and see what he thinks. I think that for me, one of the things is just not being afraid to step back into a world of a place of truth and grace. And I tell people often, there's a lady down here where I'm at the church, there's a subway just, I mean, I can almost throw a rock and hit it. And I was in there talking with her and she's got purple hair and her boyfriend came in and he's got tattoos and they're rough looking people. I mean, people are rough. I look rough sometimes. And so I invited him to church and she looked at me and she said, are you one of those hellfire and brimstone preachers? And I said, I mean, I preach the Bible. I don't know if the Bible talks about hellfire and brimstone, then yeah, sure. I'm a hellfire and brimstone preacher. And so we went back and forth a little bit and I said, I'll tell you what. And her name was Cindy. I said, Cindy, so I'll tell you what. I said, why don't you go to my website, our church website, our Facebook page? I said, listen, I said, every single one of my sermons is online. I said, I'm not hiding anything. I said, we put our entire service, our singing, our worship, our announcements, our fellowship time, everything that we're doing, my sermon. I said, I'm not hiding anything. You may listen to it and think this guy is a crazy nut. And I probably am. I said, but at least you know what you're getting into. And I think that's part of the world we live in. We, because of COVID and because everyone was forced to go online, man, you can listen to everything before you even go. So I would encourage maybe if stepping into a church building is tough because of the hurt and the pain that you've experienced, go and listen and just see. Maybe is this guy or this church sort of the atmosphere that I want to be around? You can sort of tell the atmosphere of the church by just watching online and allowing that to be sort of your launching off point. You may listen to it and say, okay, that's not the church for me. Find another one. There are churches everywhere. Listen to them. Maybe you want more orthodox or more whatever it may be. And so listen first and then step foot in. And I think it would be a good help. Brett, what's your thoughts? Somebody that's fresh out. One of the things that I would say is just take some time with your family. I'll just give you a quick example. Whenever we, I left IFB. I was an assistant pastor at my home church for eight years. And when I left IFB, I left the IFB church to go pastor a Southern Baptist church. And that's how I got out. And one of the things that the church that I went was a smaller church. They didn't have a Sunday night service. And I was pounding in me three to thrive, baby. You know, you got a Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Sunday school. Got to be at the church seven days a week. And I remember going to that new church and I felt a little guilty not going to church on Sunday night until it's like, so we started visiting other churches. And my wife was like, let's just stay home. I was like, okay, let's do it. And man, my family got so close during that time. We experienced a closeness and a healing. And so I think it's okay to take some time. Now, listen, I'm like, I'm a pastor, you know, I believe you should go to church. But when you've been through church hurt like that, you've been abused like that, you do need to just take some time and just spend time with your family. And you need to heal a little bit. I'm not going to do that that way forever. There's nothing wrong with taking some time and healing. And then when you're ready, I agree with James with the availability of online. You can just go around and listen to some things, you know, listen to some pastors in the area and dip your toe in that way. But my advice would be, yeah, take some time, spend time with your family, heal a little bit. And then, you know, when you're ready, just kind of slowly dip your toe back in and go from there. And until you're going to have this mindset that they're all alike, until you force yourself to experience something other than the IFB. And so that would be my advice. I'll say this on the piggyback of what Brett just said. I think that the reason why we think they're all alike is, and this is going to sound horrible when I say it. So don't hear me say it when I say this. The IFB was so, they love the Bible, right? The Bible is, and I love the Bible too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I don't. But they preach the inerrancy of the Bible. They preach that the Bible is God's word, and 100% it is. The problem with it is they use the Bible as a weapon. And when the Bible is a weapon, all of a sudden, every time we hear the Bible, we think it's a weapon as well. So when we go into a church that's a biblically grounded, expository preaching, faithful to the worship of the word church, and the Bible is preached and the Bible is read, it immediately hurts us because it was used to hurt us before. And so we've got to get to the point where the Bible is not a weapon. The Bible is there to help and comfort and heal me. And then when we hear the word of God preached, it's no longer a weapon. It is there to help us. That's part of what Brett just said of how it can be there to help us once we get past that point of understanding that. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. And I'm glad that I'm able to come on your guys' podcast and actually not be a host for once. It's kind of nice. Yeah. Yeah. And just talk about the IFB and just the cancer culture within the walls of IFB. And I think that also, to kind of bounce back real quick, James, when you said, you know, the mindset that they're all alike is because, well, to be honest, in the IFB, they all are alike. They are not independent as they claim they are. They are very tied in with each other. And so I always say if you don't want that, just stray away from denomination. Go to like a non-denom. Or if you still want a pastor to preach from the KJV only, there is still good Baptist churches out there that are not IFB. And so, but yeah, thank you so much, guys. I appreciate, you know, coming on and being able to kind of share about my experience and talk about my podcast too. Yeah, it was a great episode. Absolutely. Well, thank you for coming on. We appreciate it. And I look forward to getting to know you more in the future. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast. Thank you.

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